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Old 08-13-2007, 08:47 PM   #16
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Re: Lower intake swap / Vortec head & cam install on stock bottom end

i love the tooky thread's......

always informative with pic's.

tooky... what application is your turbo to intercooler hose from??
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Old 08-13-2007, 10:57 PM   #17
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Re: Lower intake swap / Vortec head & cam install on stock bottom end

Clint, to say "thanks" I searched through my photo archive for you. Autozone radiator hose part "304" is the magic number!! Cut a little to fit but you'll see it's the perfect hose!! I honestly have no idea why anyone would run a hose with a huge hump like some I've seen but I can only imagine it's because they didn't know about the ol' Autozone #304..
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Old 08-14-2007, 03:09 AM   #18
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Re: Lower intake swap / Vortec head & cam install on stock bottom end

there is no need to cut the heads for larger springs. I personally use a comp spring and have never cut a spring seat. it's a waste of time and money.
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Old 08-14-2007, 10:50 AM   #19
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Re: Performance Predictions!

Quote:
Originally Posted by TookyCat
I also spent some time (okay, all of my free time lately ) thinking about what this "should" run after it's finished. I came up with three scenarios. Usually when you get something done, it either works just like you thought, better than you thought, or nowhere near as good as you thought it would. Here's my predictions:

Worst case scenario (assuming the bottom end doesn't let loose which is the ultimate worst case scenario )
11.40 - 11.50 @ 115-116 MPH. I could see this happening if the unported vortecs are severely overhyped and/or my PT51 turbo is already closer to it's limit than I thought.

What I realistically expect once tuned well at high boost with alcohol
10.95-11.30 @ 117-124 MPH. I'll still be somewhat "surprised" if it really works out this well!

Best case scenario (if it works beyond my expectations)
10.65-10.90 @ 125-127 MPH. I doubt this would happen but I've had a few mods on my truck work out better than I expected in the past..
Not to rain on your parade, but your first few runs will likely be high 11s. Once you've had some time to sort everything all out, I don't think 11.40 is out of the question. Maybe a .30, with a good hook. Miracle air day, 11.10-11.20.

You're entering territory where .1 costs you a lot more HP than it used to. Also, below 11 seconds, the first 100 feet is critical to your times. People fool themselves into thinking they can "make it up" with more top end, but it takes *lots* of HP to make that happen.

Again, not trying to whizz in your Wheaties, but that's the reality that plays itself out time and time again. It'd be neat to see it run high 10s, but that's not really likely.
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Old 08-14-2007, 11:15 AM   #20
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Re: Performance Predictions!

Quote:
Originally Posted by turbodig
You're entering territory where .1 costs you a lot more HP than it used to. Also, below 11 seconds, the first 100 feet is critical to your times. People fool themselves into thinking they can "make it up" with more top end, but it takes *lots* of HP to make that happen.
I totally agree. I was doing some calculations for a friend to make his mid 11 sec car run a 14.0 so he could take a passenger. He wanted to do a full 1/8 mile. My inital calulation of run his car upto 100mph and then keeping the speed a constant 100mph was coming back with only .3-.4 penalty I calculated he had to quickly slow down to 60mph, the 1/8 mile make such a hug difference in 1/4 mile times. This is also why when you see a fast car blow up/back out of it half way down the track and coasts; it still runs a great number with just a low mph.
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Old 08-14-2007, 12:46 PM   #21
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Re: Performance Predictions!

Quote:
Originally Posted by TookyCat
Here's my predictions:

Worst case scenario (assuming the bottom end doesn't let loose which is the ultimate worst case scenario )
11.40 - 11.50 @ 115-116 MPH. I could see this happening if the unported vortecs are severely overhyped and/or my PT51 turbo is already closer to it's limit than I thought.

What I realistically expect once tuned well at high boost with alcohol
10.95-11.30 @ 117-124 MPH. I'll still be somewhat "surprised" if it really works out this well!

Best case scenario (if it works beyond my expectations)
10.65-10.90 @ 125-127 MPH. I doubt this would happen but I've had a few mods on my truck work out better than I expected in the past..
Phil Long set the bar pretty high with his stock long block (heads/cam/weak internals) with his mods being basically PTE 52, Air to Air IC, ATR headers, 50#, good race gas, high stall converter & traction. For those who don't remember he ran 11.1@118mph & 10.9 @ 121 mph with 35 shot N2O. Phil obviously spent a lot of time working on traction and tuning this combo. I think he ran 25-26 of boost. His combo has alway intrigued me.

At first glance, it seems like it would be pretty easy to improve his time if one was to run better heads and cam. Stock unported Vortec flow 40% more air out of the box and easily take 5-6 degree more timing than stock heads. The typically aftermarket cam cam have 30-40% more lift than the stock cam, duration number increases are relatively large as well. It really isn't that easy, many modified motors running bigger turbo's in what most what call good tunes don't run much faster than him.

Traction, was running low 1.5's, high 1.4's this obviously helped quite a bit and lot of attention detail was done. The faster you go that harder it will be to get your Sy to hook up. However, it wasn't all done with traction, if was that easy we would see a lot more Sy's running mid 11's with 118mph trap speeds.

Mods and tuning. 118 mph out of PTE52 is pretty amazing, this goes to show everyone how much can be done with tuning. One thing I alway wonder is what would happened if he used stock exhaust manifolds or used a stock upper IC, how much did either one those mods help him improve? (I am personally more interest in the headers as I have ), Tooky will be using stock IC and manifolds. In someways the stock pieces don't seem to be slow down Jeremy Duncan that much with his stock turbo (another highly tuned Sy) I also wonder what would happen with better heads and/or cam, was his PTE 52 maxed out? Maybe a small gain? Ed Hess ran a 10.6 or so on PTE60 Air to Air, headers, with a custom cam & vortecs (He gain a few .1's from upgrading the cam from a 412) Ed also spent a bunch of time with traction and had a relatively heavy Sy. I think a PTE60 is a little bigger than a PTE52, but this off the top of my head.

Lots of questions, probably won't find out until someone else pushes the tuning envelope again.
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Old 08-14-2007, 01:09 PM   #22
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Re: Lower intake swap / Vortec head & cam install on stock bottom end

Look at it this way.

I will use Jeremy's truck for example first since I know the most about it.

From the timeslip page, his best et's are

60ft 1.653
1/8mile 7.545
1/4 11.943

The first 60ft is 14% of the race
The first half of the track is 63%
The 2nd half of the race is 4.4 seconds

General rule of thumb is .1 second gain in 60ft is .2seconds in ET.

If you watch the cars running high MPH but low et's, the 60ft is generally crap.
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Old 08-14-2007, 02:02 PM   #23
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Re: Lower intake swap / Vortec head & cam install on stock bottom end

Quote:
Originally Posted by jwaller
there is no need to cut the heads for larger springs. I personally use a comp spring and have never cut a spring seat. it's a waste of time and money.
Are you talking about the Comp 915, 918s? http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles...pring_upgrade/
Quote:
But perhaps the best news of all is that these springs will bolt right onto a stock Vortec head with no machining required.
I thought about those, but at $160 (Summit) it's actually the comp spring that's a waste of money, compared to what I paid for the springs I'm running and the cost to cut the spring seat (next to nothing, even at my machine shop which seems to price on the higher end).

Not to mention I have some LS1 beehive valve springs and they most certainly did not fit on my vortecs. Maybe it varies?

Regardless, the stock vortec casting has a ridiculous spring seat with tons of casting flash, and I wanted the ability to use more than just one or two springs in the future.
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Old 08-14-2007, 02:14 PM   #24
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Re: Lower intake swap / Vortec head & cam install on stock bottom end

"O' Ye of little faith!!" Just kidding, I appreciate everyone's comments, skeptical or not. It just gives me more encouragement to get all the little things correct to make my chances of success as good as possible!

I also picked up the Harbor Freight grinder and speed control. Thanks for the pointer!

On the Vortecs, my only real 1st hand experience with them was tuning a local Vortec/412 truck and strangely enough, they didn't seem to give him much performance gain over his old setup, not only that, but they absolutely would not allow any more timing than stock LB4 heads. The truck has the same SMC dual nozzle alcohol setup as mine, and I did the tunes on both, and this truck runs well as long as the timing stays below 19* (this is with heavy use of alcohol and correct AFR). I'd love to see some datamaster files of trucks with vortecs running 93 octane fuel, no alcohol, and showing over 20* timing and flat 0 knock.... I'm not convinced the vortec "efficient combustion chamber" isn't just a myth. After all Denny Raab went 10.2 @ 130 with L35s and a PT63 turbo with the stock intercooler. I guess I'll get more data when I finish mine. Speaking of...




Getting closer! And I'm running out of room in the garage to place all the parts that've come off. I'm up to #42 on my parts-removal tagging.
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Old 08-14-2007, 02:40 PM   #25
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Re: Lower intake swap / Vortec head & cam install on stock bottom end

make sure you use plenty of rtv on the lower intake when you install it..
don't ask why...you funny ****er
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Old 08-14-2007, 05:03 PM   #26
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Re: Lower intake swap / Vortec head & cam install on stock bottom end

It doesn't look like much has to come off to swap the heads until it is strewn all over the garage.

I didn't tag any of the bolts and we spent more time figuring out which stud went where vs bolt than anything.
First time I did a tranny swap I took a box top and poked holes in it and labeled every bolt.
now I know them by heart.

I would recommend to anyone doing a head swap make yourself a bolt box and mark everything.

Glad to see you making progress Josh.
seems you spend more time tuning and racing than cleaning under the hood.
Now you have plenty of room to work in there and get some of that grime disposed of.
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Old 08-14-2007, 11:56 PM   #27
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Re: Lower intake swap / Vortec head & cam install on stock bottom end

Awww.. come on, it's not that bad, is it?? Yeah thats part of the reason I take so long (besides being a procrastinator), I try to clean every dirty bolt and chase the threads of anything gunked up, etc. I just got the water pump and A/C bracket back from the parts washer, boy did they need it!! Any suggestions on what I can paint the water pump with? Just some black engine enamel? I want to powdercoat the aluminum brackets but not sure I'll have time, maybe I'll hit them with gray enamel.
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Old 08-15-2007, 12:54 PM   #28
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Re: Lower intake swap / Vortec head & cam install on stock bottom end

Quote:
Originally Posted by TookyCat
Awww.. come on, it's not that bad, is it?? Yeah thats part of the reason I take so long (besides being a procrastinator), I try to clean every dirty bolt and chase the threads of anything gunked up, etc.
That's why my Sy has taken dang near 4 years.

Quote:
I just got the water pump and A/C bracket back from the parts washer, boy did they need it!! Any suggestions on what I can paint the water pump with? Just some black engine enamel? I want to powdercoat the aluminum brackets but not sure I'll have time, maybe I'll hit them with gray enamel.
I've got some POR manifold-gray stuff... makes it look like cast again.
Eastwood makes some similar stuff.

Eastwood also makes some real-looking aluminum paint, that's good for the brackets.
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Old 08-15-2007, 05:24 PM   #29
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Re: Lower intake swap / Vortec head & cam install on stock bottom end

My wifes Typhoon had a similar setup to this.
Stock long block
Stock vortecs with stock springs, rockers, push rods etc
ATR cam (had it laying around)
Bolt on 60-1 with ptrim wheel and stock downpipe
Full weight 4200lbs with me in it at 20psi ran 11.82's @113mph.

More in it but it was her daliy driver and I did not feel like working on it.

Nolan
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Old 08-16-2007, 03:27 AM   #30
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Thumbs up Update

Official metal song for tonight was "Dope - No Way Out". I just saw these guys live a week and a half ago for the first time and I dig their music and their frontman.

Back to the truck, I put a few more hours in tonight. Got the "Advance Auto rent a tool Power Steering pump Puller" kit for $45 deposit. Worked like a champ!! I had to chase/tap the threads inside the pump shaft since they were a little rusty and I wanted to make sure to seat this thing all the way to reduce the changes of it stripping. Boy did that take a lot of force to pull!! Here's my 2 breaker bars:




Here's what I call the "bitch bracket".. Needless to say, that thing won't be getting reinstalled!! What is the purpose of that stupid thing? There's already 2 big bolts holding the alt in place. I could tell from the rusty dents on my PS reservior that the previous owner (probably GM when they did the warranty swap) also struggled with The Bitch Bolt!





In the above photo, you can see my P/S pump puller tool is jammed in the P/S pump shaft, but now that the pulley is off, any ideas on how to remove it? Obviously the shaft just spins when I try to back it out. I'd grab the shaft with a pliers to hold it but I dont want to marr the shiny surface the pulley seats on.

After getting that P/S bracket off, I feel like a real SyTy'er.... Looks like a fine time to install my Steering Shaft Upgrade too! I got one of those black painted Jeep collapsible ones everyone's selling around here. Does the silver heat shield come off permanently?

Also PB Blasted & loosened some exhaust manifold and turbo bolts/studs. Turbo, downpipe, exh. crossover, manifolds, and harmonic balancer removal are next.
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