Distributorless ignition conversion - Need advice

[King_Ice_Flash]

Since I can't find the MSD Cam Sync or the edist any more, I was looking at some alternatives. Around 2008 they went to a setup on the silverado 4.3L which uses 3 coil packs for ignition, and I was wondering if this would even work since I can't find specifications on any of the sensor outputs.

I realize I don't exactly have a Syclone, but you guys are the only ones I have seen do a similar conversion, and are pretty familiar with the 0411 PCM.

I have a 2003 S10 with the 0411 PCM, RPM 2114 manifold, Mach Performance headers, and a Master Power T70 turbo, and I was looking at using LS1 coil packs.

12594812 WIRE,CM/SHF POSN SEN R904
12591720 SENSOR,CM/SHF POSN(INCLS 905)(ACDelco #213-3826) R906
12593590 GASKET,ENG FRT CVR R907
11588712 BOLT,HFH,M6X1X20,17.5 THD,14.2 O.D.,8.8, GMW3359(CM/SHF POSN SEN)
12591746 COVER,ENG FRT R160
12611162 DRIVE,O/PMP(W/ CM/SHF POSN SEN)(INCLS 735,755)
93442981 RING,CR/SHF POSN SEN RELUCTOR R133

http://www.gmpartsgiant.com/chevrolet-parts.html
http://www.compnine.com/

 

[King_Ice_Flash]

Re: Distributorless ignition conversion - Need advice

http://www.syty.net/forums/showthread.php?t=53233

I know this is going to sound like a dumb question, but what controller uses the 7X crank sensor? I thought the output on the fast edist was 1 spark for every other crank revolution?

 

[UR50SLO]

Re: Distributorless ignition conversion - Need advice

I know that Cal Heartline has a LS1 coil pack setup working on FAST XFI Buick GN engines. He has a entire kit for us to convert over to indivdual coils. (He might know the best route)

I think your stock system can be used since your dist. now has 1 pulse per rev and the crankshaft has 3 pulse on the crank sensor. I'd think with a ECM seeing those two it would be possible to run DIS since Buick's do it with 3 on the crank and one on the cam.
The problem lies with the ECM programming. Your 411 PCM can be changed in every way except the way it receves and outputs the signals. That's a Hardware problem.. Not software.
I talked to one of the Tech's at Hptuners about this problem and that's what he informed me.
Now.. if you went to MegaSquirt or XFI you can set those perameters up and make it work with some wiring changes but I don't think we can make it happen with out changing your 411 PCM to
the 2007 that is setup for coil Pack or Stand alone.
I sure wish there was a easier way!
~Scott.

 

[T-Bone]

Re: Distributorless ignition conversion - Need advice

The problem lies with the ECM programming. Your 411 PCM can be changed in every way except the way it receves and outputs the signals. That's a Hardware problem..

I sure wish there was a easier way!
~Scott.

It CAN be done because my prototype Syclone is converted to a distributorless ignititon system and runs flawless. Wish I was saavy enough to advise how it is done but I don't have that expertise.

To the OP: If you are close to Clarksville, TN you are welcome to stop by and take a look. Perhaps that would aid you in figuring it all out. BTW, I am also running a tweaked chip in the stock ECM.

 

[JSM]

Re: Distributorless ignition conversion - Need advice

I know as much about T-Bones system to know it is using older (late 80's) off the shelf GM stuff with maybe just a few tweaks to chip. Very minor.

 

[King_Ice_Flash]

Re: Distributorless ignition conversion - Need advice

Wow, that was dumb, but I asked for a tune off of your PCM knowing you said "chip." I am guessing you are using a ICM off of a V6 buick like setup which has the ICM built into it.

I am actually in Korea right now, so it won't be practical to just stop by

http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/GM_7pinHEI.htm
This one explains Hall/Optical/VR sensors
http://www.megamanual.com//ms2/pickups.htm
http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/36-1.htm

http://www.lukeskaff.com/car/northstar/theory.html

Thanks for the excellent responses, and it is encouraging to know that this could work with my PCM on the 3X reluctor ring.

When I tried this before, the terminals that the Corvette uses for coil control were not switching. I will take a look again at how the Ignition Control Module (ICM) is wired to the PCM, since this is what I "thought" provided timing to the PCM, not the 1X Cam (CPM) directly.

In EFILive, there is no way to change the number of cylinders, or the profile of the reluctor ring. The only option in the menu is Vehicle Platform > Vehicle Platform Option > Low Resolution Crank > YES/NO

I inquired about this on EFILive forums a while back, and they said I needed to use a higher resolution ring like the one on the LS1 and set this to "NO"

Is HPTuners any different? The only thing I could think to do would be to choose another OS (Which I don't have calibration files for), or switch to the Corvette/Camaro calibration on the same 12212156 OS, but those are both 8 cyl 24X Sensors.

The thing that really confused me, and stopped me from trying to make this work before was creating a new high resolution crank sensor ring. I don't understand the offset in the two halves of the sensor ring:

I would have expected it to look like this:

http://www.lukeskaff.com/car/northstar/theory.html

Not like this:

http://chevythunder.com/ls1_page_1.htm
http://chevythunder.com/24x_and_58x_reluctors.jpg

 

[Windedv6]

Re: Distributorless ignition conversion - Need advice

Why go through the hassle of coil packs. I run both of my Tys with a digital 7 box and never have any spark issues. My AWD Ty setup uses the stock HEI distributor and as seen 28-30 lbs of boost without a miss.

My TT Ty setup is using a crank trigger setup and a large case (v8) MSD distributor with a V6 cap with an adjustable phase rotor. Both setups work great.

John

 

[UR50SLO]

Re: Distributorless ignition conversion - Need advice

It CAN be done because my prototype Syclone is converted to a distributorless ignititon system and runs flawless. Wish I was saavy enough to advise how it is done but I don't have that expertise.

To the OP: If you are close to Clarksville, TN you are welcome to stop by and take a look. Perhaps that would aid you in figuring it all out. BTW, I am also running a tweaked chip in the stock ECM.

You have a working DIS but don't know how it's done?

A 411 PCM is 99 up. NOT stock Sy/Ty. Thus why I said it's a hardware problem with the newer ECM's not a software problem.

I never said it couldn't be done in code 59.

If you could post who converted yours and contact information for those who have a stock ECM and want to switch that would be helpfull.
~Scott

 

[King_Ice_Flash]

Re: Distributorless ignition conversion - Need advice

The biggest reason I have right now is clearance issues caused by my intake/fuel rails. I don't have room to run a return line.

The other reason is because there is still stock parts on it.

 

[Poconojoe]

Re: Distributorless ignition conversion - Need advice

The biggest reason I have right now is clearance issues caused by my intake/fuel rails. I don't have room to run a return line.

The other reason is because there is still stock parts on it.

You can run your distributer with the Syclone intake and get the rails to clear. Doug Leadfoot is doing it, I know its tight, but it will fit

 

[King_Ice_Flash]

Re: Distributorless ignition conversion - Need advice

Poconojoe, did you ever get your wiring harness installed?

I don't really have a picture with the distributor in, but it does work, and it is very close. I just don't have room to run a return line. I'm running the 2114 intake.

 

[turbodig]

Re: Distributorless ignition conversion - Need advice

You have a working DIS but don't know how it's done?

A 411 PCM is 99 up. NOT stock Sy/Ty. Thus why I said it's a hardware problem with the newer ECM's not a software problem.

I never said it couldn't be done in code 59.

If you could post who converted yours and contact information for those who have a stock ECM and want to switch that would be helpfull.
~Scott

Triad converted his... it was a back--door project, I suspect.

It can (and has) been done with the stock ECM and a few timing parameter changes. The 3.1/2.8 7-notch ignition module is the most common target. The biggest barrier to doing it is the fab of the wheel, a bracket to mount the crank sensor, and a different balancer.

The 411, as you say, is a different beast. You would need to find a codebase that was used to drive COP/CNP coils and had the option of changing cylinder count. You may find that in some of the truck code.

The offshoot problem with this is even if you get something to run the ignition, it may not tolerate boost well for purposes of fueling.

As John mentioned - what's wrong with the dissy setup? Or is this a trying to be different thing?

At the end of the day, by the time you add up all the $ you spend on parts gathering, wiring, HPtuners, and all the related stuff, you're pretty darn close to what a standalone setup would cost you.

Could also look into the megasquirt stuff as well...

 

[Poconojoe]

Re: Distributorless ignition conversion - Need advice

Poconojoe, did you ever get your wiring harness installed?
.

If you'd switch to the corvette LS1 style filter / regulator, you wouldn't need a return line, depending on the fuel pressure you were planning on running. The corvette setup doesn't have a vacuum referance, but I'm sure, there is something out there in that style that would have a vacuum / boost referance, if you're planning on running boost, if not just run the vette setup
As far as the harness, no, I just seem to have too many things going on, to do it, plus I don't need jack stands to hold mine up, I have a spare lift.
Doug did get his in his 2001 or 2002 S10 (I forget which year) He got the ECM switched over to 411 PCM, the 4L60E in it and the motor running, we just didn't get a chance to start tuning it, it is running on the 2 bar, so boost is possiable.
I can change a Gen 3 CNP OS over to 6 cylinder, but nobody seems to know if the crank sensor should be 24X or 18X and which coil outputs, it would use, plus a dozen other issues, If you put a 24X or even a 18X crank reluctor wheel in the motor, you'd have to find a crank sensor small enough to work with it. Right now Doug and I have late model 4.3 3X crank reluctors along with the 2000 vortec V8 covers. you need to machine the balancer to acomidate the thickness of the reluctor wheel. The nice thing about this setup is it control a 4L60E or a 4L80E without a standalone controller

As far as using the late model wasted spark system, like on the newer 4.3's, there is no support for the PCM, and I've been told, its not that good of a setup, to begin with.

 

[King_Ice_Flash]

Re: Distributorless ignition conversion - Need advice

I'm running a aeromotive A1000 FPR without vacuum reference right now. I don't really like relying on the FPR to increase fuel pressure, because I'll probably forget to hook it back up, and it will run lean under boost.

The 24X vs 18X is another question I had, but I can try both, and I would be attaching it behind the harmonic balancer, so I wouldn't need to machine it.

I can pretty easily find a reluctor ring off of a LS1 and rig it up, but I don't know where the reference for TDC is on the ring.

Thanks for the help guys.

 

[T-Bone]

Re: Distributorless ignition conversion - Need advice

You have a working DIS but don't know how it's done?

If you could post who converted yours and contact information for those who have a stock ECM and want to switch that would be helpfull.
~Scott

Hey Scott. The DIS was already on the truck when I acquired it. Wish I knew for sure who converted it because quite a few people have showed interest in converting theirs. Would like to be more of a help but on this particular issue, I can't....I just know it can be done. Even experienced guys have looked it over and are unsure how it works so I don't feel so dumb (HA).

 

[T-Bone]

Re: Distributorless ignition conversion - Need advice

Triad converted his... it was a back--door project, I suspect.

I cannot confirm or deny that but it would be within reason. As President of Triad Corporation and "owner" of this particular truck (titled under Triad), Mike Piccobello got what he wanted. Isn't he the one that had PAS respray it red instead of white/grey, like it initially was? You probably know better than I.