Should I go for Vortec Heads? Your Opinions will really help!

[Monesq]

My mechanic has provided me with a decision and I wanted to run it by all you veterans. I have a stock head in my current vehicle. The engine was ported all specs similar to those of a Vortec engine, but no Vortec heads. My mechanic promised me a Vortec and he has stated that he will install same, at no cost to me. He feels obligated to do the right thing for me and he will eat the cost and labor. He has explained that due to the difference of the Vortec heads, they will need to do some welding etc. to fit right. He also stated that he is not sure if I will need to have the exhaust changed by using custom headers. That I may have to pay for!

My question is this, I am not looking for a vehicle that will break into the 9's in a 1/4. (I'd be happy with 10's!!!!!) Seriously, it is a daily driver and I enjoy launching it on occasion. I also enjoy taking it on long trips with the wife and kids. My Ty is my main vehicle. (my only vehicle when the wife is not around as my Hurst Olds is not running at all). I am almost 1,700 miles into the engine, almost enough time for the rings to properly seal so I can do some Data logging and have a Prom burned to the specs of my engine. (Comp Cam will actually be doing the Prom burning for me, they just want all the Data logs) The engine is performing VERY well right now as it is. With a proper tune, I can only expect that the performance will increase dramatically-which will please me.

My main concern is that if I go for Vortec heads, am I asking for trouble when it comes to having a reliable vehicle? If the reliability decreases due to installing a Vortec head, then it may not be worth it to me even with the increased air flow etc.

My initial decision has been to see how it runs after it is properly tuned and I start using the Ultimate and increase my boost.

Your opinions in response to this Thread will be appreciated as I have found this forum to be very helpful.

 

[sean]

Re: Should I go for Vortec Heads? Your Opinions will really help!

My mechanic has provided me with a decision and I wanted to run it by all you veterans. I have a stock head in my current vehicle. The engine was ported all specs similar to those of a Vortec engine, but no Vortec heads. My mechanic promised me a Vortec and he has stated that he will install same, at no cost to me. He feels obligated to do the right thing for me and he will eat the cost and labor. He has explained that due to the difference of the Vortec heads, they will need to do some welding etc. to fit right. He also stated that he is not sure if I will need to have the exhaust changed by using custom headers. That I may have to pay for!

My question is this, I am not looking for a vehicle that will break into the 9's in a 1/4. (I'd be happy with 10's!!!!!) Seriously, it is a daily driver and I enjoy launching it on occasion. I also enjoy taking it on long trips with the wife and kids. My Ty is my main vehicle. (my only vehicle when the wife is not around as my Hurst Olds is not running at all). I am almost 1,700 miles into the engine, almost enough time for the rings to properly seal so I can do some Data logging and have a Prom burned to the specs of my engine. (Comp Cam will actually be doing the Prom burning for me, they just want all the Data logs) The engine is performing VERY well right now as it is. With a proper tune, I can only expect that the performance will increase dramatically-which will please me.

My main concern is that if I go for Vortec heads, am I asking for trouble when it comes to having a reliable vehicle? If the reliability decreases due to installing a Vortec head, then it may not be worth it to me even with the increased air flow etc.

My initial decision has been to see how it runs after it is properly tuned and I start using the Ultimate and increase my boost.

Your opinions in response to this Thread will be appreciated as I have found this forum to be very helpful.

don't know if it will help but i'm going to be running pontiac's and it is going to be streetable with my build. i think it has to do with all the tunning your going to be doing to make it reliable or not. just my 2 cents. i'm shure someone esle will chime in

 

[bezerk]

Re: Should I go for Vortec Heads? Your Opinions will really help!

vortecs are better, less prone to detonate, flow better, better chamber desing, your stock manifolds will fit.
u will need bigger injectors

 

[jjorgensen52]

Re: Should I go for Vortec Heads? Your Opinions will really help!

I figured they would be pretty reliable since they go on production motors to this day... I love my vortecs, they run very nice. I have about 1100 miles on mine and they have been A+ ...

 

[#2875]

Re: Should I go for Vortec Heads? Your Opinions will really help!

if your mech is offering vortecs for free i'd say take them.

 

[NOJIMMY]

Re: Should I go for Vortec Heads? Your Opinions will really help!

...okay, I know I'm gonna get smacked for saying this:

"How good is your mechanic?". You have a running, driveable, reliable vehicle I assume.
Have you data logged it? Does it have detonation, pinging, fuel or IAT/MAT problems
your seeking to solve (with good/great gas)? Do you race a lot?

Some people dont realize that vortecs require intake manifold changes
(as in welding, or custom configuration). Is he gonna port the heads, use
same/different values, rockers, lifters etc? Are you gonna stay put with the cam?
Is flow numbers a concern...are you gonna run more timing? Is your turbo
equipped to flow/spool with the head changes? How about injectors?
Are you running headers now? Are you sure he`s an accompllished
welder (and you wont have leaks or worse problems?)

As for porting, MORE removal is always better either. Is he gonna
flow test/optimize his porting, or port match the heads to the intake?

I just dont see a lot of info that would make me confortable in recommending
more mechanical work....(to accomplish your overall plan of "what") for "why"?
Are you running stock heads now? L35s? Ported Heads? Head improvements
of any kind? Stock Turbo/Exhaust/Engine Build? ECU/Chip?

I really have a hard time in changing out parts for parts sake, unless
your trying to solve a problem or "get to a certain build/performance".

anyways, I'll go back to hiding now...
Larry

 

[BillC]

Re: Should I go for Vortec Heads? Your Opinions will really help!

The stock exhaust manifolds will fit Vortec heads with no problem. However, you will need to have your intake manifold welded up and ported to fit the intake ports of those heads (the vortecs have a raised roof intake passage). John Waller (jwaller) did my intake, and it worked fine.

 

[midnightbluS10]

Re: Should I go for Vortec Heads? Your Opinions will really help!

He has explained that due to the difference of the Vortec heads, they will need to do some welding etc.

He stated that his guy knows about the welding.

have a Prom burned to the specs of my engine. (Comp Cam will actually be doing the Prom burning for me, they just want all the Data logs)

Is there any scecific reason you're using comp cams? Why not a syty member? That way there is no guess and check. How many syty chips do you think comp cams burns a year? 2....maybe three. If I were you, I'd go to a vendor here and use their services. Who else would know these trucks better than they do? Surely not comp cams.

 

[Monesq]

Re: Should I go for Vortec Heads? Your Opinions will really help!

...okay, I know I'm gonna get smacked for saying this:

"How good is your mechanic?". You have a running, driveable, reliable vehicle I assume.
Have you data logged it? Does it have detonation, pinging, fuel or IAT/MAT problems
your seeking to solve (with good/great gas)? Do you race a lot?

Some people dont realize that vortecs require intake manifold changes
(as in welding, or custom configuration). Is he gonna port the heads, use
same/different values, rockers, lifters etc? Are you gonna stay put with the cam?
Is flow numbers a concern...are you gonna run more timing? Is your turbo
equipped to flow/spool with the head changes? How about injectors?
Are you running headers now? Are you sure he`s an accompllished
welder (and you wont have leaks or worse problems?)

As for porting, MORE removal is always better either. Is he gonna
flow test/optimize his porting, or port match the heads to the intake?

I just dont see a lot of info that would make me confortable in recommending
more mechanical work....(to accomplish your overall plan of "what") for "why"?
Are you running stock heads now? L35s? Ported Heads? Head improvements
of any kind? Stock Turbo/Exhaust/Engine Build? ECU/Chip?

I really have a hard time in changing out parts for parts sake, unless
your trying to solve a problem or "get to a certain build/performance".

anyways, I'll go back to hiding now...
Larry

Thank you all for your input. Here is some more info.

The engine is a 123553050 build. I am assuming this is an engine built sometime in 1992-1993.

1. The turbo I am running is PTE51. (see my signature) Comp Cam 09-415-8, JE pistons, adjustable rockers.
2. The current heads, etc. are Vortec ported throughout. Matched upper and lower.

Cyl 724.64
Chamber 65
Pist Dish 22
Gasket 10.08
Deck 5.41
rod clearance .0023
Main clearance .0022 - .0024
crank end play .005
Cam end play .004
rod side play 1 - .009; 2 - .011; 3- .011; 4- .013; 5 - .012; 6 - .014
ring gar: Top: .022 2nd .022 Oil .026
Cam in at .006 23lc 109
Valve lash: Hyd 3/4 turn
Deck height +/- .026
Dome volume .22
Piston to advance clearance Intake: .300 Exhaust: . 400 Pocket 1.40
On the heads: Guide clearance: .0015 -.0016
Install height 1.800
Open spring pressure: 305
Closed spring pressure: 140
Coil bind 1.150
chamber cc 65

My mechanic has stated that the he will port the new heads, but the curent CAM and other parts etc. will be used in the Vortec as it was built with a Vortec in mind.

I have not yet data logged the engine as I wanted the rings to properly seat. I expect within the next two weeks to hit the 1,700 mile mark. Right now, oil consumption is quite low (1/4 of a quart after approximately 400 miles).

The individual who offered to burn the Prom from Comp Cam apparently is a big Typhon enthusiast and has a Typhoon (this is according to what was told to my mechanic) My mechanic is also in contact with JS mfg. re: buring a Prom.

Rigth now I am using the stock injectors and the stock ECM without any mods. My boost has been limited to under 12 and I have the speed limiter at 100 mph. This has all been done to properly brake in the engine as I sometimes have a heavy foot!

I do not have any pinging or detonation, primarily due to the limits placed on the engine's ECM and the fact I am not using the Ultimate chip set right now. Even with these limitations, the engine performance seems to be better than when I first purchased my vehicle in 1993!!

SO my conundrum is I am being offered a Vortec which I know has a better history and less prone to detonation but should I mess up an engine that right now seems to be performing well?? Of course, I wont know how well until I do some data logging and tune it up some more but I would not be surprised if the HP easily easily exceeds 500.

I am not concerned about the welding as MACH development will more than likely be doing that and they have a very good reputation for making racing engines. I am glad the stock exhaust will work.

I like my mechanic he is a good business man and a very good mechanic and a good guy. He has been building street rods all his life. Thus I don't want to get something for nothing - bad carma and all. But at the same time, I did pay for a high performance but streetable engine set up. If I go to a Vortec will I lose that streetability? WIll it only run great at WOT? Will it sputter and stall when going through a school zone?

These are my concerns. Your input will be appreciated.

 

[#2875]

Re: Should I go for Vortec Heads? Your Opinions will really help!

what lifters are you using? zero + 3/4 of a turn is way too much for the comp hd lifters.

 

[#2875]

Re: Should I go for Vortec Heads? Your Opinions will really help!

vortecs are more streetable than stock heads. ported vortecs are not as streetable as any stock head.

 

[Monesq]

Re: Should I go for Vortec Heads? Your Opinions will really help!

what lifters are you using? zero + 3/4 of a turn is way too much for the comp hd lifters.

I believe they are Magnum rocker arms adjustable,

 

[Monesq]

Re: Should I go for Vortec Heads? Your Opinions will really help!

vortecs are more streetable than stock heads. ported vortecs are not as streetable as any stock head.

SO do I take what you are saying to mean that my current configuration fully ported and Vortec specs but not Vortec heads is actually less streetable?

 

[#2875]

Re: Should I go for Vortec Heads? Your Opinions will really help!

more radical = less streetable

SO do I take what you are saying to mean that my current configuration fully ported and Vortec specs but not Vortec heads is actually less streetable?

 

[MRKING]

Re: Should I go for Vortec Heads? Your Opinions will really help!

ported vortecs are not as streetable as any stock head.

Thats not really true . Ported vortecs on a stock turbo , then yeah , but those heads and a larger more equally matched turbo setup will drive as well as the stock setup , if not better . It depends on your complete list of mods to whether or not you need them ported.

 

[NOJIMMY]

Re: Should I go for Vortec Heads? Your Opinions will really help!

...<I would very much like one of the engine builders, like Waller, or Mike/RPM, or Canadians to look at your info regarding your build specs>

It seems to me you have a basic build (JE Pistons, Comp Cam, PTE 51, etc).
I dont know if ring seating (ie the amount of miles and oil comsumption) is normal either
(kinda thinking about this a bit more). I dont need to tell you that stroke, bore, cam
lift/duration, rocker selection, piston/ring selection, lifters and timing, spark plug range
all play a key roll in top end performance with our compression/turbos. (sorry for stating the obvioius).

Since our SyTy builders see more engine configurations than me daily, Im wanting them to
validate (a bit) your build specs (not wanting to confuse, nor error on misinformation on my part).
I remember the problems Dean had with his engine build (low compression due to heads)
see http://www.syty.net/forums/showthread.php?t=40869

And Im not entirely sure what a vortec build is (the terminology)...meaning is it stock vortec
heads were installed, or stock SyTy heads were installed, or ported vortec heads were
suppose to be installed but were not. It also seems with the use of a prompac that
chip tuning (perhaps conservatively) is being done (versus an ultimate with a 3 bar)

It is a fact that vortec heads, with the right engine specs, can be a good choice
with improved detonation prevention; use of more timing; a bit better boost control
at higher levels; and improved hot spotting. But overporting, intake vacuum leaks, wrong
lift/duration or valve sizes, etc can negate any/all of these things/advantages. Some folks dont
mind loud lifter/valve noise (or bent push rods), but Im a nut who believes these things
are symptoms of problems. I just helped in rebuilding an engine recently that had
a lifter collapse due to a cam lobe failure. So Im being a bit cautious...not knowing
if changing your heads will improve your current situation, or make matters worse in
the long run. (ie I tend to be results oriented, and not buzzword oriented, not that
pontiac, brodix, dart, L35s or vortecs arent an improvement but there are other items
to consider for optimum performance...sometimes).

So Im not convinced reliability, performance, and driveability is gonna improve by
letting your mechanic and ecu tuner modify your present configuration given what
you`ve said. But I dont want to steer you wrong either (in perhaps missing out
on a freebie with no impact financially to you).

Can someone look at this guy`s build to see if Im being a bit too cautious/red-flagish
in jumping to different heads free of charge?

Larry

 

[swoop]

Re: Should I go for Vortec Heads? Your Opinions will really help!

theres welding involved with the vortec swap? what else in involved?

 

[Monesq]

Re: Should I go for Vortec Heads? Your Opinions will really help!

And Im not entirely sure what a vortec build is (the terminology)...meaning is it stock vortec

What I was told is that the head is the stock head that has been ported out to be as close to a Vortec as it can. Not sure what that means, thus my post. My engine is working very well.

What I had requested was the best performance engine I could put in the Ty but still be able to take my 2 and 4 year old out for a drive and know I would be returning home. Thus, the reason for the PTE 51 versus a larger turbo. Alot of the other things doen to the engine have been geared toward RELIABLE performance and safety. We have very hot weather here and it will negatvely impact a SY/TY. (I can't wait for the cooler weather!). My previous engine blew its rings because of detonation problems. I told my mechanic I wanted a new set-up that would minimize that concern. (again the weather and my lead foot contribute to this problem, along with poor fuel choices in the Valley)

It also seems with the use of a prompac that
chip tuning (perhaps conservatively) is being done (versus an ultimate with a 3 bar)

Correct. The Ultimate is not being used at all right now, nor is the 3Bar, at least not until I can do some more complete datalogging to burn a new prom in a couple hundred miles.

Can someone look at this guy`s build to see if Im being a bit too cautious/red-flagish

That would be great!! Thanks Larry.

Larry

 

[midnightbluS10]

Re: Should I go for Vortec Heads? Your Opinions will really help!

My previous engine blew its rings because of detonation problems. I told my mechanic I wanted a new set-up that would minimize that concern.

Vortecs would be a key factor in minimizing detonation.

 

[Monesq]

Re: Should I go for Vortec Heads? Your Opinions will really help!

Thats not really true . Ported vortecs on a stock turbo , then yeah , but those heads and a larger more equally matched turbo setup will drive as well as the stock setup , if not better . It depends on your complete list of mods to whether or not you need them ported.

Other than what I have included, what other mods would be determinative in porting the Vortec heads?? I am running stock injectors right now in that the 50# ones I have did not run well in the engine. (I think that was due to the lack of a 3Bar and Ultimate being used, not sure).