Baseline DM values anyone?

[phoonTy]

With the vast expanse of info we now have on tuning our trucks, from stock parts to wild, big budget engines, has anyone taken the time to compile a document with baseline DM values as a starting reference? The ideal would be a screenshot of DM with all the correct baseline values filled in.

I have a rare, mostly stock truck. :lol: The only aftermarket add-ons I have are 3"DP & exhuast through hi-flow cat, K&N panel filter (Stock Airbox setup) and electronic boost controller (was on truck when I bought it.) My truck still has the stock FP regulator... that's how stock it is :lol: (it's getting an AFPR soon.)

With that being said, I want to learn how to tune, and what better place to start than a stock truck. I have DM and Turbo-link. I know to look for KR, knock counts, 100%TPS... and that's where it starts getting fuzzy.

It doesn't do me any good to start "tuning" without knowing baseline values of a stock, properly running truck. Getting my truck there first with good plugs/wires/cap/rotor, timing set, base FP adjusted properly, etc. is obviously the first step in the tuning process.

If there is no document out there, I would be glad to put one together, if someone could fill me in on the values...

I've searched, and it's possible to find some of the important values mentioned, but I haven't seen, heard of, or found a full listing anywhere... and it's entirely possible I just missed it.

just thinking out loud here at work. :tup:

 

[nello]

Re: Baseline DM values anyone?

Great idea, I hope some people get back to you soon. I would also be very interested in these values.

 

[sytyguy]

Re: Baseline DM values anyone?

Unsure of a timeline, but I'd be happy to sit down and do it. May even get with Ian and make a nice flash page that shows the expected graph/values when you click a data cell. Hmmmm......

I'll start tonight on the raw data.

Hood

 

[nello]

Re: Baseline DM values anyone?

Unsure of a timeline, but I'd be happy to sit down and do it. May even get with Ian and make a nice flash page that shows the expected graph/values when you click a data cell. Hmmmm......

I'll start tonight on the raw data.

Hood

Could u enter in 2 things please? 1) what a (cold) startup w/ 1-2 min long, idle warmup would look like followed by a 2) WOT table. Thanks!!! :tup:

 

[sytyguy]

Re: Baseline DM values anyone?

Could u enter in 2 things please? 1) what a (cold) startup w/ 1-2 min long, idle warmup would look like followed by a 2) WOT table. Thanks!!! :tup:

Is there a particular value your looking to watch or do you want all the data for both conditions? Essentially, timing, fueling, and temps will change from cold idle to warm. If it's something specific (like, how much base timing is added/removed as the engine warms at idle), I may could get you that info asap so you don't hafta wait on me to make this list (I'm not gonna have the whole thing done any time soon, I'll be honest).

Hood

 

[phoonTy]

Re: Baseline DM values anyone?

Unsure of a timeline, but I'd be happy to sit down and do it. May even get with Ian and make a nice flash page that shows the expected graph/values when you click a data cell. Hmmmm......

I'll start tonight on the raw data.

Hood

A flash page would be awesome! and way above and beyond what I was thinking. My thoughts were basically to get a screenshot of DM and then simply edit the values to the "correct" baseline numbers and post it for everyone to use as a reference/starting point.

I was thinking for starters: At idle (warmed up), full throttle, and under steady boost, say 75% throttle?... I can see the hard part being the fact that all you guys with the know-how most likely don't have stock trucks to play with anymore :lol:

But I think it's definitely something that would help keep a lot of trucks on the road. Most of us can at least do the tune up stuff, adjust fp, timing and the like and get the numbers close without a lot of the technical expertise. That way, we are at least running a good basic tune before we decide to do anything else.

And like I said, I'm all for helping compile the info into a PDF/graphical/print type format. :tup: That I can do. :lol:

 

[Tooky]

Re: Baseline DM values anyone?

The service manual already has the information you are seeking, it's a big chart with expected values of ALDL data. I want to say it's in the Driveability & Emissions section, going from memory..

But that's not really how you "tune" a truck. The main way I "tuned" in the past (before I got into chip editing) was to do like you said and monitor knock retard on datamaster and also use Datamaster to verify I am getting as much boost as I should, and shifting at the correct RPM, and that my RPM lines weren't jagged like an ignition breakup would cause, etc. Is that the kind of info you're looking for? Something like "here's a photo of what a correct datamaster graph would look like if your transmission were operating properly"? I already have posted several of those in the past in my monster race report threads (see signature links), but I'm also working on authoring many more for a much larger project.

Oh yeah, the reason I put "tuning" in quotes is because there can be two meanings.
1.) Getting the truck "back into tune", in other words making it run like it should have run from the showroom in 1991/92/93. This is the biggest challenge for 90% of SyTys out there.
2.) Actually changing the chip values to customize the tune for your specific truck. i.e. tuning out that last 10% of performance.

I assume you meant #1 but forgive me if you meant #2.

 

[dgoodhue]

Re: Baseline DM values anyone?

At some point in time a few years ago, someone throughly respond to a thread on reading Datamaster. I know I contributed to it, but I want to say Smeagol and sytyguy did the first take. I looked for it a last spring when I was writing my webpage but I couldn't find it.

Anyways their isn't much different for stock vs modified trucks, it basically the same principals. You don't always look for a number but for something in a range or a trend. I look at idle, driving around, progressively easing into boost (mainly to make sure its not going to blow up) and then WOT. I don't have time to write up anything right now and I don't own datamaster for screen shots. Junior's Ty was the cleanest datamaster run I have ever seen, so his might a be a good reference.

 

[sytyguy]

Re: Baseline DM values anyone?

At some point in time a few years ago, someone throughly respond to a thread on reading Datamaster. I know I contributed to it, but I want to say Smeagol and sytyguy did the first take. I looked for it a last spring when I was writing my webpage but I couldn't find it.

Anyways their isn't much different for stock vs modified trucks, it basically the same principals. You don't always look for a number but for something in a range or a trend. I look at idle, driving around, progressively easing into boost (mainly to make sure its not going to blow up) and then WOT. I don't have time to write up anything right now and I don't own datamaster for screen shots. Junior's Ty was the cleanest datamaster run I have ever seen, so his might a be a good reference.

Yeah, Brian and I contributed to the thread that your referring to. I remember giving a "range of acceptable values" for just about every data cell. Not too hard to duplicate, so I'll prolly just start from scratch again this time.

I'll probably edit some screenshots tonight and throw them up tomorrow to get something up for you guys asap while I chip away at the big picture. BTW, (and not letting too much of the cat out of the bag) this is something that Ian and I spoke about at the last GAST/FAST meet. Actually, this is just one part of it. The other part will be VERY cool. More on that later.

Hood

 

[Loeryder]

Re: Baseline DM values anyone?

I do recall that post from back in the day.
Thought I had documented it somewhere.

Here is the pages from the Light Duty Truck driveability manual.

Not sure how helpful that really is b/c it is only looking at part throttle and idling oncditions.
Then again would you want GM dealers testing your truck at WOT???

 

[unluckyty]

Re: Baseline DM values anyone?

Here is the thread, in mention that I ask years ago, good straight to the point answer. http://www.syty.net/forums/showthread.php?t=72

Greg

 

[turbodig]

Re: Baseline DM values anyone?

Generally, I find that it's less about looking for limits, and more towards trends.

Here's what I look for. (assuming there's no wide-band)

This is during a WOT run...

1)Knock
Ideally, should be zero. Of course, it isn't an ideal world. 1-2 degrees, on shifts, is somewhat normal. Most trucks knock severely... even stockers. Most stockers hit 7-8 degrees every time, unless there's better than average gas in it.

I've ignored 4 degrees. Probably shouldn't have. Anything more, needs to be fixed.

2) IAT. Depends on type of intercooler setup, but big-end temps above 135 are too much.
Less is better, obviously. Depends a lot on outside temps, too.

3) Boost.
Boost that moves more than 1.5 psi from the set-point is a problem. Boost should be flat through a run, no droops or spikes. A short spike on the 1-2 or off launch is ok.

4) o2 mv

Contrary to popular belief, there is no "normal" value for this. Buick guys will just about
jump down your throat for such blasphemy, but accept it as truth. Some generalities are accurate:

<800 mv under WOT is bad things. (lean).

02 mv should be relatively flat (you need to zoom in on the line in DM). Dips/spikes indicate poor fueling calibration

>1.00 is too rich 95% of the time.


5) RPM

Look at the shift points. A stocker will raise RPM to 4100-4200, then drop sharply to 3200-3400. The points should be sharp, the drop line should be nearly straight up and down. RPM will rise again to the 2-3 shift, where you should see another sharp peak,
dropping to 32-3400. The 3-4 won't be as high, you're lucky if you see 4000 RPM.

Round shift peaks mean your trans is weak, as does a dragging pull-down line.

A higher stall TCC won't pull down as low. Sometimes a combo of a high stall TCC and
too low of a shift point will make the shifts "disappear" entirely. This is bad.

Aside from the sharpness of the shifts, you want to look at the areas after the shifts.
The stretch between the 2-3 shift is a biggie, since you can see more there, and there's
enough load there to work the ignition system.

What you're looking for (acutally, not looking for) is jaggedness in the RPM rise to the next shift.

The jaggedness can be caused by:

Bad ignition.
Too much boost.
Too little fuel
Too much fuel. (Really. Low 10.x AFRs often cause knock and ignition blowouts)


How much jagged stuff you can get by with, is kind of a touchy-feely thing. None is good,
but rare. This is where you start picking apart your ignition, making sure your AFR is what it should be, and generally getting rid of mechanical problems.

6) Battery voltage.
>13.2 at WOT. Make sure your alternator is providing enough voltage, if it isn't.
Big injectors, ground problems, or bad power wiring to the ECM can make this be low,
too.

There's other stuff, too, but these are the big ones I normally look at.

 

[phoonTy]

Re: Baseline DM values anyone?

Generally, I find that it's less about looking for limits, and more towards trends.

Here's what I look for. (assuming there's no wide-band)

This is during a WOT run...

1)Knock
Ideally, should be zero. Of course, it isn't an ideal world. 1-2 degrees, on shifts, is somewhat normal. Most trucks knock severely... even stockers. Most stockers hit 7-8 degrees every time, unless there's better than average gas in it.

I've ignored 4 degrees. Probably shouldn't have. Anything more, needs to be fixed.

2) IAT. Depends on type of intercooler setup, but big-end temps above 135 are too much.
Less is better, obviously. Depends a lot on outside temps, too.

3) Boost.
Boost that moves more than 1.5 psi from the set-point is a problem. Boost should be flat through a run, no droops or spikes. A short spike on the 1-2 or off launch is ok.

4) o2 mv

Contrary to popular belief, there is no "normal" value for this. Buick guys will just about
jump down your throat for such blasphemy, but accept it as truth. Some generalities are accurate:

<800 mv under WOT is bad things. (lean).

02 mv should be relatively flat (you need to zoom in on the line in DM). Dips/spikes indicate poor fueling calibration

>1.00 is too rich 95% of the time.


5) RPM

Look at the shift points. A stocker will raise RPM to 4100-4200, then drop sharply to 3200-3400. The points should be sharp, the drop line should be nearly straight up and down. RPM will rise again to the 2-3 shift, where you should see another sharp peak,
dropping to 32-3400. The 3-4 won't be as high, you're lucky if you see 4000 RPM.

Round shift peaks mean your trans is weak, as does a dragging pull-down line.

A higher stall TCC won't pull down as low. Sometimes a combo of a high stall TCC and
too low of a shift point will make the shifts "disappear" entirely. This is bad.

Aside from the sharpness of the shifts, you want to look at the areas after the shifts.
The stretch between the 2-3 shift is a biggie, since you can see more there, and there's
enough load there to work the ignition system.

What you're looking for (acutally, not looking for) is jaggedness in the RPM rise to the next shift.

The jaggedness can be caused by:

Bad ignition.
Too much boost.
Too little fuel
Too much fuel. (Really. Low 10.x AFRs often cause knock and ignition blowouts)


How much jagged stuff you can get by with, is kind of a touchy-feely thing. None is good,
but rare. This is where you start picking apart your ignition, making sure your AFR is what it should be, and generally getting rid of mechanical problems.

6) Battery voltage.
>13.2 at WOT. Make sure your alternator is providing enough voltage, if it isn't.
Big injectors, ground problems, or bad power wiring to the ECM can make this be low,
too.

There's other stuff, too, but these are the big ones I normally look at.

Wow! Thanks Dig. :tup: If my internet is back up at home tonight (Stupid Comcast :rant: ) I will definitely be printing that out. I will definitely take the info in this thread and compile it for SyTy.org. Like I said earlier, I've searched for this info, but after all of the server moves/upgrades to the forums, it's getting harder to track it all down, without reading 400 threads. :lol:

And thanks everyone else for the contributions. It's good info for those of us with stock trucks, trying to keep them stock and on the road. :tup;

 

[turbodig]

Re: Baseline DM values anyone?

Something I forgot in that last post...

Seeing the data that's wrong is one thing; how to fix it if it's wrong, is the real issue.

This is where a database of gdf/uni/ads would be useful, if it were equated to a possible solutions matrix.

I have hundreds of uni files, good and bad, from 15 years of looking at things.
If someone wants to put them up someplace, let me know. Sorting through them would be a bit of a problem, since it represents lots of different builds and states of tune.

Also, a while back I started to look into having a page where a uni/ads could be uploaded, which would then give you a URL to the file. This would allow folks who were looking for help a place to upload the files, sort of a photobucket for data files. Never got it done.

Later,

 

[phoonTy]

Re: Baseline DM values anyone?

Something I forgot in that last post...

Seeing the data that's wrong is one thing; how to fix it if it's wrong, is the real issue.

This is where a database of gdf/uni/ads would be useful, if it were equated to a possible solutions matrix.

I have hundreds of uni files, good and bad, from 15 years of looking at things.
If someone wants to put them up someplace, let me know. Sorting through them would be a bit of a problem, since it represents lots of different builds and states of tune.

Also, a while back I started to look into having a page where a uni/ads could be uploaded, which would then give you a URL to the file. This would allow folks who were looking for help a place to upload the files, sort of a photobucket for data files. Never got it done.

Later,

You should talk to Renz. He has the cool "Renz Uploader" script for people to dump images and such. I'm sure it would work for your app. Then everyone could dump their files to the same place. The issue would be like you said, keeping them sorted and organized, and having it spit out the url to link back to. I'm sure it could be done though. :tup:

 

[Loeryder]

Re: Baseline DM values anyone?

Can gallery software be modded to accept uni csv doc or even pdf?

I would think if it can store Jpgs it can handle any file, maybe not for the thumbnailer but just storage and retrieval it should work.

 

[MikeRenz]

Re: Baseline DM values anyone?

i really don't feel like making my tiny uploader thing categorize stuff. :lol: if you feel like zipping a few together....or making folders of different builds and zipping it all together, i could host that. How many files are we talking about? 100s?

 

[phoonTy]

Re: Baseline DM values anyone?

i really don't feel like making my tiny uploader thing categorize stuff. :lol: if you feel like zipping a few together....or making folders of different builds and zipping it all together, i could host that. How many files are we talking about? 100s?

I wasn't talking about using yours specifically... I was more thinking of using the same code to set up a site somewhere else. I can ask Brian if there's room for SyTy.org to host all the files and stuff. I wouldn't think they would be that big... Do they get bigger than kb?We could set up an uploader for people to dump stuff there and give certain others access to help keep it organized... good idea? bad idea?

 

[turbodig]

Re: Baseline DM values anyone?

I wasn't talking about using yours specifically... I was more thinking of using the same code to set up a site somewhere else. I can ask Brian if there's room for SyTy.org to host all the files and stuff. I wouldn't think they would be that big... Do they get bigger than kb?We could set up an uploader for people to dump stuff there and give certain others access to help keep it organized... good idea? bad idea?

I have some files in the 1-2 meg range.

Doesn't have to be fancy... categorize by folders.

I looked for a Joomla/Mambo component to do this, but I really didn't find anything other than gallery. Gallery is kind of the right concept, just the wrong file format.

 

[Aeroking]

Re: Baseline DM values anyone?

how accurate is the dyno option on DM ?