20g install, some tips, and a little insight into my lag

Ian Turgeon

Cascading Inspiration
was gearing up to go to the track and push the stock turbo, stock injectors limit, but stumbled upon my new turbo.

thanks to maxtor, the turbo combo ive been looking for became availible... with everything I needed. the 20g td06H with a 12cm housing.

for those that dont know they typically come with a 14, and the 12 is very difficult to find.... and expensive when you do.

Welp I went to the garage the night the turbo arrived, and port matched the exhaust housing... polishing as much as possible. Then some work on cleaning up the inlet and outlet of the compressor housing.

A coat of Steel-it paint was applied (thanks darron) and the wastegate rod was tacked shut after a quick trip to midas.

Waited till fri, and installed the turbo.

Things to be aware of:
the backing plate on the comp side of the turbo is weak, do not hit it with anything in an attempt to remove the center section from the exhaust housing. :evil:

the 4 bolts holding the turbo to the manifold will struggle, and struggle well. the hardest by far is the rear top one, its behind the wastegate pocket on the turbo, and theres no where to get there. we used the cheater wrench method to break the bolts ( 2 open/closed wrenches interlinked). Well we fumbled for a long time with the last one untill we finally realized we had knocked it loose somehow ( gotta love that ). we pulled the downpipe out a bit to get some room here.

the studs in the turbo housing can be difficult to remove. I had an old housing sitting around, of which I snapped one stud, and gave up on the 2nd after it started doing the same. to remove studs, you have to use two nuts tighted down on one another, then loosen the lower one and it should take the stud with it. For this process I would reccommend having a low mile truck :p ... it makes a huge difference. I think this is where we spent the most wasted time.

when your finally getting things going again, you will do something bad. I dropped a stud nut into the downpipe. Its a far worse sound then dropping a screw in the engine bay and not hearing it hit the ground. I remved the saudi res and was astonished not to find it in the dp ( we were sure it had made it down and got stuck in the dip in the pipe) well, we quickly decided it hadnt gone into the dp, rather that it had made it into the turbo and down into the xover pipe. After some thought.. I moved the resonator around to find the nut had gone down the dp, uphill past the dip, and rested in the saudi res. more wasted time here lining up the exhaust again.

there rest of the process went as easy as it should. everything bolted together and all was happy.

I turned the truck over a few times with the coil wire off to get some oil and coolant flowing.

And the results?:

first more reading, a little background.
my first time to the track... 14.30's thats no good, truck has bad boost control and im have a hard time launching with boost. I decide to install and external gate to elliminate boost control issues. I find the key to launcing... time. My truck is taking 5 sec or so to build up to 5psi. Now, 5psi is a slow launch, no grip loss... were looking at 1.9-2.0 60' im sitting in the 13.5's now. well I figured out after going for broke, I can build 11-13psi at the line if I wait long enough. Im now getting 1.72 60's and its noticably faster... rip off a 12.98.

well 12cm 20g installed. lag is more appearent as expected. ( boy im glad I didnt do the 14cm) however, Im positive my torque converter has been wrong all this time. I can now only build 2 psi at launch... pedal on the floor (look down... rpms at !!! 1500 :evil: !!! and not budgin. Theres no hope of it rising like it did before.. were just not spinning the turbo enough.

Well... let go of the brake and, woohoo theres me 2.0 60' launches back. lags noticably up to about 6psi, then its all over. Boom, hitting the boost limit on my sbcid and staying solid at 16lbs ( still conservitive on the fueling here) Feels strong and mighty nice. (steel-its smells of toxid gas too).

driving around a bit, noting the new characterisitcs, its noticably lagier.. the stock unit wanted to build boost like it was waiting for me to catch up to it. However, a downshift can cause supprising left-turn characteristics... First time I've ever slammed the pedal to the floor from 20mph or so, and had the truck take a quick step to the left. Theres definately more power hiding in there...

Now I just gotta get it to build boost at the line.

With the lag and all, I'm still very excited to see where this goes.

Picked up an SMC kit thanks to mom n dad... will be adding that to the equation soon too.

Cant wait to hear her scream with 20psi and a good 2500rpm launch
 

Maxtor

New member
Glad to hear you got it going, Ian. Sounds like you are on your way to at least low 12's. One thing I have done in the past on the top turbo mounting nut you mentioned is put a stubby on it, have someone hold it in place, then go topside and sit a long extension bar perpendicular on the wrench - and tap down on it with a hammer. It's hard to get leverage with those stubby's.

Lag will be quite a bit worse with the stock TC.... I started to get really happy with the 12cm2 housing after installing the 9/11 2800, I could build nearly any amount of boost at the line very quickly.
 

QUIKSUV

New member
Have you worked with your SBCID? I had noticable lag switching from a 20G to a PTE60. Spent some time tuning the gain number and the response is quite good. The gain was about 5 and is now 45. I only have about 0.2 psi overshoot getting up to a 20 psi target. Don't run automatic control!. Use manual settings.

A higher stall converter is a must IMO.
 

Ian Turgeon

Cascading Inspiration
Yea, since im using an external, the 15 # spring is gonna do as much as it can for me to build boost...

Its just waiting for a converter now :-?
 

redty

New member
A few additional notes and items on a 20G install.

A few additional notes and items on a 20G install.

1. Don't worry about the stock studs on the turbo.
2. Don't worry about the stock nuts on the exhaust manifold mounting the turbo.
3. Use the gasket from a Dodge Diesel turbo to seal the turbo to the manifold, found one at a junk yard, direct fit.

Solutions:
If you have Lowe's in your area, you can take your old nuts from the exhaust manifold and size them with spiffy new stainless steel units. Replace the turbo to downpipe studs with bolts, makes it easy to remove and install the downpipe. Just take the original bolts from the downpipe and use them to size a bolt, lock washers and standard washers also available.

Gasket material available from Autozone will allow you to make a nice oil return gasket to keep things nice and neat.

PS thank Brian Green for the Stainless hardware ideas.....
 

sy2206

New member
Ian, what converter do you have? I assume you went with the 12cm2 over the 14cm2 to try to prevent lag?
 

Ian Turgeon

Cascading Inspiration
sy2206 said:
Ian, what converter do you have? I assume you went with the 12cm2 over the 14cm2 to try to prevent lag?

redty-- good idea on the stainless bolts, you can definately do that instead of the studs... thinking about it I may do that now even after finishing the install (dp is fairly easy to deal with) If I do I'll post the sizes for the bolts. That woulda saved me some time had I even thought about it.

Lowes is great for fasteners as I have noticed in the past.

I'm fortunate and didnt have to worry about any gaskets

sy2206-- To my best guess, the converter is a na s-10 converter. The trans was rebuilt several times by aamco, and I've never used to do a whole lotta boost launching (to theoretically save the trans from harm). The best I can guess is they threw a sonoma converter in.. which hurt me before, but now its downright lagy.

It was stalling higher before, but I think I can attribute that directly to the fact that the stock turbo was able to make more hp at such low rpms. This 20g cant do it as low, and now the converter's true colors are starting to shine through.

2psi at 1500rpm is nothing like 2psi at 3000 ( or 13psi at 2000rpm that I could manage on the stock turbo).

Im pretty sure Im going to buy what pops went with according to blake's instructions. the budget Makco/dacco pro street intruder (PP7730)... $180 for a lockup 2300-2500 stall should do the trick I'm hoping.

and if not, not much wasted, and if it does... I didnt waste 500+ on a billet slushy doughnut
 

sy2206

New member
I'm just suprised to see someone want the 12cm2, thats all. I'm in no way trying to flame your combo, I'm just curious. Why not a 14cm2 and a 2800? I have a PTC 2800 lockup with my stock turbo and it RIPS! Dig has run the 2800 with a 20g14gcm2 for years with good sucess and excellent spool. I think a 20g14cm2 with a 2800 stall will spool just as fast, or faster than a 20g12cm2 w/ a 2500.

I understand that the larger exhaust housing will create more lag, but if you correct for it in the converter(by going higher stall), I think you can have the same or better results.

And the drivability of my 2800 is sweet. Drives just like a stocker until you power brake it. I got the #2 super street raptor, kevlar clutches, and it was only $248 shipped to my door.
 

turbodig

Active member
sy2206 said:
And the drivability of my 2800 is sweet. Drives just like a stocker until you power brake it. I got the #2 super street raptor, kevlar clutches, and it was only $248 shipped to my door.

One little piece of little-known Syty trivia that comes into play in these
situations is that there were 2 Syty converters from the factory. The
second was a service campaign converter, and was noticably tighter
stalled.

This effects spool-up on the stock turbo, but makes a 20g/14 or TE series
turbo run like an absolute dog.

The early converter was pretty good, which is maybe why there's such a
variation in results in upgrading turbos.

Mark's point about the converter being well worth the price of admission
is a good one. Tuning your wastegate operation (ie, leave it off until 6-7
psi) also makes a large difference.

Later,

Dig
 

Ian Turgeon

Cascading Inspiration
luckily dacco is real loose about their ordering system.. the tc I ordered isnt really tied to me, and It seems like it will sit on the shelf (btw, dacco rules... they know every damn part in their inventory off hand).

I had my mind set on the 12cm/converter combo and didnt think about the 14cm at all...(blinders on)

the original idea was to stay low stall and get as much as I can out of the turbo, well with the converter being way off, that shot the whole thing off a tooth or two, I might as well go up to the 2800 and be done with it for a while.

I'm almost set into buying the #2, I wonder how much it would be worth it to set up to the #2x (worth the $115 on a budget build?)

btw, after a few days driving, I really dislike the way this thing runs with a real low stall, it has no low/mid-throttle speed and drives more like a small displacement motor that doesnt do anything w/o revs.
Boost is slow and its a dog below ~2500rpm. once it hits 6-7psi it wakes up... the driving experience is nothing like the stocker. (think external gate only cracking at 15# and an open downpipe.. boosted fun at anything above 1500rpm)

Hopefully a converter will change my mind. If not I may have to think about waking up the motor a little with heads/cam, or going backing down on the turbo a bit.

I cant imagine with so many people going bigger turbos and never complaining so much about drivability that the converter isnt the solution here...

crossing figners :-?
 

sy2206

New member
I'm almost set into buying the #2, I wonder how much it would be worth it to set up to the #2x (worth the $115 on a budget build?)

I just have the regular #2. I figured it would be enough for what I have now. By the time I end up going bigger(more HP), I'll need more stall at that time anyway, so at that point, I'll get the higher stall in a #5(9/12).

the original idea was to stay low stall and get as much as I can out of the turbo, well with the converter being way off, that shot the whole thing off a tooth or two, I might as well go up to the 2800 and be done with it for a while.

Yup, I agree. I think you'll be much more happy with the drivability. My 2800 with a stock turbo ROCKS. Insta-spool. The higher stall makes it very fun to drive because the boost comes on so hard! I think even with your 20g12cm2, the 2800 should make for a very fun combo.

btw, after a few days driving, I really dislike the way this thing runs with a real low stall, it has no low/mid-throttle speed and drives more like a small displacement motor that doesnt do anything w/o revs.
Boost is slow and its a dog below ~2500rpm. once it hits 6-7psi it wakes up... the driving experience is nothing like the stocker.

Exactly. Get that #2 2800 and let 'er buck. Buy the converter now and I'll help you put it in in March. I'm planning on making it down there for spring break.
 

JSM

Active member
I have 2800 myself, and loved it.

Took a bit at first to get used to it, but after that never noticed any difference other than spool.

Had 14 housing also on my old 20g. Now if I would have just left the truck alone, I could probably still be driving it. GRRR
 

Mario65

Hotrodicus Supersonicus
Here are the dropped posts






Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 636
Location: Baxter, MN

Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2004 6:44 pm     Post subject:

Why do you want to change the flapper and W/G hole? Why not just port match the stock turbo to the manifold and run it like that. Then, when you're ready for a 20g, just buy a whole new turbo with the bigger exhaust housing.
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91 Sy #2206
12.46 @ 107.7
Stock motor, turbo, I/C
"I like anything fast enough to do something stupid in." Vin Diesel

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4LINKSY



Joined: 06 Aug 2003
Posts: 72
Location: Vegas

Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2004 7:13 pm     Post subject:

sy2206 wrote:

Why do you want to change the flapper and W/G hole? ...


To control boost better?
_________________
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KC 03 4LINKSY Modified 12.1@109 don't ask

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SyTyArchives



Joined: 22 Aug 2001
Posts: 2353
Location: Orlando, Fl

Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2004 7:15 pm     Post subject:

depending on if he wants to run an open exhaust or not, he may need to address the wastegate a little.
_________________
Ian T
Sy2424 12.98 @ 101.80 at 17psi
orlando, FAST
www.sytyarchives.com
'I wanna take over the world, and give all the idiots a brand new religion'

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Mario65



Joined: 25 Dec 2003
Posts: 18


Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2004 7:36 pm     Post subject:

I want to control the bost accurately. 18psi on 93 octane is great if i could hold it there withput overboost. I also understand that the 17c is not very efficient near 20 psi. So I beleieve that alittle more on the comp side is all i would need to fix that.

i have a friend that owns a diesel injector/turbo repair shop who will do the machine work in the turbo. I plan to do the port matching and install.
_________________
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sy2206



Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 636
Location: Baxter, MN

Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2004 9:15 pm     Post subject:

If boost control is what you're after, I'd reccomend some custom tuning and leave the W/G how it is, just tweak the boost in the chip and upgrade the canister spting. I ran my stock turbo with an open downpipe at the track every time I raced last year, 20psi. I now run 20-21psi through full 3" after the stock downpipe(different tune than I had last year) just because I got sick of taking the exhaust everytime I went to the track.
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Mark Christofferson
91 Sy #2206
12.46 @ 107.7
Stock motor, turbo, I/C
"I like anything fast enough to do something stupid in." Vin Diesel

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Mario65



Joined: 25 Dec 2003
Posts: 18


Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2004 10:10 pm     Post subject:

canister spring adjustment? Where and how please? will it speed up the time it takes to open?
_________________
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sy2206



Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 636
Location: Baxter, MN

Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2004 10:22 pm     Post subject:

You can buy the TD06 "high boost" canister from Hahn racecraft. However, you will have to modify the bracket and shorten the rod to make it work on a stock 17c. Or Dig can sell you a spring for much less, if you feel like taking your canister apart, swaping springs, and putting it back togather. This can be tricky to do without it leaking when you're finished. Dig is also the one who does my tuning. He can be contacted at:

turbodig@yahoo.com
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Mark Christofferson
91 Sy #2206
12.46 @ 107.7
Stock motor, turbo, I/C
"I like anything fast enough to do something stupid in." Vin Diesel

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20g install, some tips, and a little insight into my lag
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sy2206



Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 636
Location: Baxter, MN

Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2004 6:44 pm     Post subject:

Why do you want to change the flapper and W/G hole? Why not just port match the stock turbo to the manifold and run it like that. Then, when you're ready for a 20g, just buy a whole new turbo with the bigger exhaust housing.
_________________
Mark Christofferson
91 Sy #2206
12.46 @ 107.7
Stock motor, turbo, I/C
"I like anything fast enough to do something stupid in." Vin Diesel

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4LINKSY



Joined: 06 Aug 2003
Posts: 72
Location: Vegas

Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2004 7:13 pm     Post subject:

sy2206 wrote:

Why do you want to change the flapper and W/G hole? ...


To control boost better?
_________________
Looking to trade 97 Silverado 4 C5 LS1 TY or ???
http://www.lvfbody.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8830

SOLD 4LINKSY SOLD SY732
4 Nats and counting:
KC 00 SY732 Stock 13.4@99 1st
GB 01 SY732 Stock Turbo 12.5@105 2nd
IL 02 SY732 Stock Turbo 12.5@106 1st
KC 03 4LINKSY Modified 12.1@109 don't ask

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SyTyArchives



Joined: 22 Aug 2001
Posts: 2353
Location: Orlando, Fl

Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2004 7:15 pm     Post subject:

depending on if he wants to run an open exhaust or not, he may need to address the wastegate a little.
_________________
Ian T
Sy2424 12.98 @ 101.80 at 17psi
orlando, FAST
www.sytyarchives.com
'I wanna take over the world, and give all the idiots a brand new religion'

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Mario65



Joined: 25 Dec 2003
Posts: 18


Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2004 7:36 pm     Post subject:

I want to control the bost accurately. 18psi on 93 octane is great if i could hold it there withput overboost. I also understand that the 17c is not very efficient near 20 psi. So I beleieve that alittle more on the comp side is all i would need to fix that.

i have a friend that owns a diesel injector/turbo repair shop who will do the machine work in the turbo. I plan to do the port matching and install.
_________________
1975 T/A 455HO 4speed dyno 607/604, 93 Firehawk, 91 Syclone, 2003 Ducati St4s

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sy2206



Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 636
Location: Baxter, MN

Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2004 9:15 pm     Post subject:

If boost control is what you're after, I'd reccomend some custom tuning and leave the W/G how it is, just tweak the boost in the chip and upgrade the canister spting. I ran my stock turbo with an open downpipe at the track every time I raced last year, 20psi. I now run 20-21psi through full 3" after the stock downpipe(different tune than I had last year) just because I got sick of taking the exhaust everytime I went to the track.
_________________
Mark Christofferson
91 Sy #2206
12.46 @ 107.7
Stock motor, turbo, I/C
"I like anything fast enough to do something stupid in." Vin Diesel

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Mario65



Joined: 25 Dec 2003
Posts: 18


Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2004 10:10 pm     Post subject:

canister spring adjustment? Where and how please? will it speed up the time it takes to open?
_________________
1975 T/A 455HO 4speed dyno 607/604, 93 Firehawk, 91 Syclone, 2003 Ducati St4s

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sy2206



Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 636
Location: Baxter, MN

Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2004 10:22 pm     Post subject:

You can buy the TD06 "high boost" canister from Hahn racecraft. However, you will have to modify the bracket and shorten the rod to make it work on a stock 17c. Or Dig can sell you a spring for much less, if you feel like taking your canister apart, swaping springs, and putting it back togather. This can be tricky to do without it leaking when you're finished. Dig is also the one who does my tuning. He can be contacted at:

turbodig@yahoo.com
_________________
Mark Christofferson
91 Sy #2206
12.46 @ 107.7
Stock motor, turbo, I/C
"I like anything fast enough to do something stupid in." Vin Diesel

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MjP

Banned
I have a plain ol 20G.....
Stock TC...

I can sit there and build 10psi all day........

and my lag is comprable to a stock turbo........
20g is such a miniscule upgrade in size compared to the displacement of our motor......... so of course the thing should spool up quick......

sometimes however, i do get boost creep..... but it's all balls to the wall baby... fuck it

I personally wouldn't bother with a 20g... but it was on the truck when i bought it.... better than stock
 

Ian Turgeon

Cascading Inspiration
by Plain ol 20g, what do you mean?

Is it the stock center section with upgraded 20g comp? what exhaust housing?

I dont see it as being a worthless when its helping people run into the high 11's with some tuning.

IMO, if your running a td06h20G with a 14cm exh housing, theres NO way you could get much for brake-boost or even compare it to the stock turbo spool on the stockTC. Something doesnt add up there.
 

sy2206

New member
I have a plain ol 20G, Stock TC, I can sit there and build 10psi all day, and my lag is comprable to a stock turbo......

I also find that a little hard to believe. How can you make a bigger turbo spool the same, with all the same variables(ie. stall, porting, so on). And holding 10psi is nothin. I can hold 18 with my 2800 and a stock turbo if I want to. I have DM files where I left the line with 14psi. I'm sure a 20g would bring that down a little.
 

Maxtor

New member
There are 20g's out there with the stock (8cm2) exhaust housing. This would allow one to build 10PSI "all day long" and the gains aren't that great over stock - 100cfm more airflow from the compressor but the same restrictive exhaust housing. I had one for a while and gained a couple of tenths in the 1/8 mile with it. I assume this is what "MjP" is running.

Switching to the larger housings (12cm2 and 14cm2) changes things significantly with the stock TC. I know there was no way I could build 10PSI with the 12cm2 housing on the line with the stock TC in my truck.
 

Ian Turgeon

Cascading Inspiration
Bringing this back to life again.

After a week of driving the truck around, I put diacom on it to check things out and rest my worrying head. O2 mv bumping from like 450 to 452 and back, its still unplugged, BAH. (blamed adam for not plugging it back in). Well the low end drove better once it was connected again, but there still wasnt any hope in boost launching.

Shoot forward in time to today:
Finally got my Raptor #2 2800 stall installed. ( my first experience with a stall change or a bigger stall converter for that matter). It mostly drives like stock.... except when i brake boost... which I quickly tested today.

:D <- they dont make a big enough smile face.

This thing builds boost better then the aamco converter did with my stock turbo. You have no idea how much difference there is.... especially when youve been living blindly under the wrong converter.

biggest difference ive noted in regular driving is when your under light throttle and the shifter is in 2 ( I usually drive in D, but crank it down to 2 in speed bump laden parking lots to prevent the engine braking kickdown). Well in this case it revs considerably higher before shifting, enough to make your ears say that the rpm is too high... Then it slams into second like a race car. Hmm.. have to figure out this new converter still.

happy so far.... Have to see what kind of numbers this thing can do.
 

sy2206

New member
<- they dont make a big enough smile face.

I told ya! Cool, I'm glad you like it. That converter rocks, it seems to be working great for everyone who's been using it so far.
 

Sy0569

New member
A question for Ian-

Ian did you get the #2 raptor good for 450hp or the #2X good for 550 hp? I'm in the market!
 
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