4L60E for 600+HP GMHTP May 09' P.80

B

Bad Ass Black Trucks

New member
I don't know if anyone has talked about this article... I just got around to reading it.

Long and short, Century Transmission uses the best components from the 4L60E 4L65E along with some aftermarket parts to make it handle ~650 whp.

The idea of having a 700R4 rebuilt to handle the power of my mildly built TY is appealing. At this point I'm not ready to go with the 80E my truck isn't that wild yet and swapping the trans adds another level of complication. I plan on keeping my TY mild, it has to serve duties as a daily driver.

The entry trans from century is $1,360 while the stage III (600 RWHP) is $2,100. The stage IV is good for 650 but no price was listed. I haven't looked too hard at the 80E swap but the price tag on the stage III does seem a little steep.
 
MRKING

MRKING

New Parts for Old Trucks
Re: 4L60E for 600+HP GMHTP May 09' P.80

When you go budget build and then it lets go in say x amount of time , with the cost of the next 700r4 added up , does it seem so expensive ?

Some guys go a few years with hard abuse , some last a year .Some not even that long. Seems like a gamble when you start throwing mods on the truck .

Stock truck , level 4 tranny yes .
Modded truck , maybe not . The awd is what kills them , they heat up and thats it .But this is just my opinion , get a parts list of whats in each of those .
 
Quickstop [UK]

Quickstop [UK]

Combating adversyty.
Re: 4L60E for 600+HP GMHTP May 09' P.80

still need an external controller, and the cost of the rebuild. You may as well just do the 80E and be done with it.

If it's modded then you prob a have a different stall - why not make it a 4L80E stall?

then you just need the kit and the shaft changes...

It is an option for sure but if you take the pain early then you are better off in the long run. If you can get the trans to work :rotf:
 
JSM

JSM

Active member
Re: 4L60E for 600+HP GMHTP May 09' P.80

I find it very misleading for these companies to advertise the tranny will hold XXX Hp. Trannies are rated and should be by torque.

650hp at what rpm?

650 hp @ 2k rpm is 1700 ft lbs of torque
650 hp @ 6k rpm is 570 ft lbs. of torque

I typically mild mod sy/ty will make 350hp @ 3200 rpm. That comes out to 580 ft lbs of torque.

I typically buttrocker camaro etc will make the same 350hp at 4500 rpm ? That is 408 ft lbs.

big difference in torque, torque is what breaks stuff.

http://www.superchevy.com/technical/engines_drivetrain/transmission/0311sc_4l65e_copy/index.html Simply put, the L65 is a heavier duty version of the L60, which was the automatic found in the F-car, and currently, the Corvette and some light duty trucks. It's standard equipment in 6.0L truck applications, such as the Cadillac Escalade AWD, with an engine torque rating of 380 ft-lb (the 4L60-E's torque rating in the Corvette is 360 ft-lb).
Click to expand...


I also have read but not confirmed 100% the 60 or 80 in 4L60e/4l80e ratings is newton tons.

so 600 newton meters / 1.36 = ~440 ft lbs
800 / 1.36 = ~ 590 ft lbs

Assuming this info is correct.

Mild modded truck as above is making 580 ft lbs of torque, stock tranny will only hold 440 ft lbs. This is why we break a trans.

The same camaro making 350 hp, only makes 408 ft lbs, below the factory rating of the trans and will probably live a lot longer.

We all know parts can be added to improve torque handling, but I would ask how much. 50% improvement? I would say this would be a well built/modded trans. But it is still only 660 ft lbs. Mild modded truck should be fine. Syty making 450hp at 3500 rpm is making 675 ft lbs or torque. Looks like we have an issue again.

Long story short any shop advertising X Hp is FULL OF SHIT.
 
Foot Performance

Foot Performance

Donating Member
Re: 4L60E for 600+HP GMHTP May 09' P.80

MRKING said:
The awd is what kills them , they heat up and thats it.
Click to expand...


That is the problem with a rwd car that doesnt weigh 4000lbs+ is going to have traction problems weather you here it or not with 600 hp which help the clutches to keep from slipping and helps keep the heat down

Thw AWD of out trucks + the weight + the huge torque numbers Is what kills out trucks

you want DD reliablity go 80e sorry:tup:
 
J

'JustDreamin'

Dream: 6LV8 Turbo Bravada
Re: 4L60E for 600+HP GMHTP May 09' P.80

Foot hit this right on the head.

These trucks present the triple whammy for a transmission.
1.) Lots of torque. 500 to 600 ft-lbs on the input shaft is pretty stout. In a NA motor, you're looking at having to make 600 to 800+ hp to make that kind of torque.
2.) Weight. Sy's aren't too bad, but Ty's with all the glass and all are getting towards 2 tons. That's a fair bit more than a 65 Chevy II.
3.) TRACTION. In a 2wd car, the tires squirm and flex some, and act as a fusible link alot of the time. Have to get to slicks and suspension mods to get the same effect that these trucks have stock. It certainly isn't impossible to spin a tire on these trucks, but that's not exactly easy. And shock loading that occurs at shift points isn't all that easy on them either (big engine torque plus wide ratio spread plus lots of traction plus a fast hard shift = lots of shock and a big torque spike).


The biggest problem with the 700R4 / 60E / whatever GM wants to call it next is that there's aluminum in the power path. Aluminum will fail sooner or later (no fatigue life). Next is the shift methodology is tough (you've got band to clutch shifts and clutch to band shifts vs the 80E's clutch to clutch only shifts). And then you've got the shear size of the components (vs the 80E) just aren't big enough for that kind of power and the shock loading that goes with AWD.


It's your money, and there are drawbacks to the 80E. It's heavier and bigger. There's less ratio spread overall (2.48 to .75:1 vs 3.06 to .69:1 ratios for the 60E). You have to run a controller, so there's another thing that needs to be tuned.

Advantages include: Its alot tougher to break, the rpm drop between shifts is smaller, and the controller allows you to tune shift points and quality without getting ATF all over you (plus you can tune the part throttle to be soft, with WFO still being firm, if you desire).

'JustDreamin'
 
U

Upgrade

I suffer from boost envy
Re: 4L60E for 600+HP GMHTP May 09' P.80

For the newer full size trucks at least. GM has a torque management setup in the trans control. Basically pulls a lot of timing to lower the engine torque to get the trans to last. Someone posted a datalog of the timing curve and IIRC the timing got pulled back to zero.
 
B

Bad Ass Black Trucks

New member
Re: 4L60E for 600+HP GMHTP May 09' P.80

This thread didn't bring up anything that I haven't heard before... but let me ask this has anyone read the article yet? I'm guessing no because I had the page number wrong. The article starts on page. 74.

Take a look at it if you get a chance and see if you come up to the same conclusion I have.

First, let me say that I was in the same school of thought that you guys are ...the 700R4/4L60E is junk. I have seen them grenade in bolt on F-bodies that hook and I have read more than a few threads about the SYTY guys killing them with trucks in stock form, much less modified.

I have also dealt with the headaches of a blown tranny in a heavy AWD vehicle... My dad has an Escalade ESV (5700+ LBS) with a magnacharger, LT's and some other bolt ons. For being a land-barge it's no slouch. I ran a 99' Cobra dead even to 70 from a roll.
The tranny was slipping between 3 and 4 on the highway (I would like to note that the tranny was slipping before I ran the cobra) so I pulled it out and had it rebuilt. Then the pump blew within 1,000 miles. New pump was $500 and the performance torque converter he bought was trashed. Tranny was rebuilt again and I put it in. Luckily I noticed that the flexplate was warped when I checked it, which was likely the cause of the blown pump. New flexplate and I put it back together. Still didn't shift right. The whole time I was telling my old man that he needed to upgrade the tranny... It's only a 4L65E! I kept telling him that HP+AWD+Weight= tranny death. He finally took it to a tranny shop. Turns out our GM tech we had rebuild the tranny after hours did a shitty job. It needed a new main bearing and new servos. Will it hold up now? I have my doubts. I do know that it was a ginormous pain in the butt to take the t-case and all the other crap out just to get to the tranny. And I seriously had no fun doing it 3 times in a row.

Now for my thoughts on the GMHTP article. When I first started reading it I was thinking, "How the heck are they going to beef up such a weak tranny?" The article confirmed that the 4L60E is junk in stock form. But that taking the 65E planetary and a billet steel output shaft along with a host of other factory and aftermarket upgrades to the 60E one can make a descent tranny. I was thinking that this route might not be a bad way to go. While the 80E swap is a good idea, it's not a simple drop in. Yeah the cores are cheap, but you need the controller, crossmember, propshaft, etc... it all adds up. It's something else to fiddle with and adds something that can go wrong.

Maybe I'm jaded because my last 'swap' snowballed. I wanted a LT1 in my GMC sonoma. I now have a built LT4 with the alternator being the only untouched component on it, a new custom driveshaft, custom radiator, narrowed back half, ford 9", 4-linked, fuel celled truck that is more suited for the track than getting groceries. Do I enjoy it? Now that I finally got the time to put the finishing touches on it and put it back on the road, yes. Did I put more money into it than I ever thought I would? Yes.

I put forged pistons and H-beams into my TY for reliability. Yeah, I threw on L35 heads and got a better turbo. Do I plan on cranking up the boost? No. Am I going to drive it every day? No. Fortunately I have an 94' V-6 camaro that can share the duties.

The thought of keeping things simple with a built 700R4 is appealing. Will I go that route? I don't know. The pricetag seemed a little bit high for the stage II build. I don't want to know what the stage IV costs. I would have to consider that compared to an 80E swap. But as of right now, I don't even have the truck back together yet. We'll have to see how long the GM replacement TY 700R4 with 35,000 miles lasts. It also depends on whether or not the person doing a 700R4 build would back it for the torque/weight of the TY. I am also interested in hearing if any guys out there have built 700R4's to this degree and if/when they let go.

I guess this long post needs a summary. I think that a fully built 700R4 may work may work in my situation. I want to keep it simple. My build isn't crazy and when I really want to go fast I have something else to go crazy in. In theory this should keep the urge to boost launch at bay.

Knowing all this, what do you guys think now?
 
Jimmy

Jimmy

Banned
Re: 4L60E for 600+HP GMHTP May 09' P.80

Plenty of Sx/Ty ppl have blowm up 700's with billet output shafts and the 5 pinion plantaries.
 
2cold

2cold

New member
Re: 4L60E for 600+HP GMHTP May 09' P.80

Its the torque, the launches breaking shit. If I spent the $ on the motor for 600+ I wouldn't be running no 4l60e/700r4. The boost launch is what these trucks got going for them
 
Quickstop [UK]

Quickstop [UK]

Combating adversyty.
Re: 4L60E for 600+HP GMHTP May 09' P.80

seems you may still blow it before you swap in a new trans if your rebuild was bad. if you get forced into it then you'll probably go the 700r4 route. If it holds for a bit then you have time to do the 80e.

might be worth putting some money away and just doing the 80e later
 
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