aftermarket turbo
- Thread starter flintdawg
- Start date
Falco
Donating Member
This evergreen was on BG's old site. Maybe he can comment it.
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*Mitsu turbo/stock motor*
I believe the 20g setup is as big as you -should- go on the stock injectors. It is a good turbo to bolt on if your stocker is dead, you want the stock look, or you just want a bit more turbo. I recommend the 20g with 10cm2 housing for those who want VERY stock drivability, on stock converter. The 20g with 14cm2 has a bit of lag with a stock converter, where a stall converter would make that large housing a bit more responsive on the bottom end. The 12cm2 housing is difficult to obtain, and I believe it requires machining to fit. I found a source for the 12cm2 housings, and they are expensive.
*small Garrett/stock motor*
Past the Mitsu point, the Garret turbos are hard to beat. Lots of combinations available. If you want to use a stock converter, the TE44 is best, with a 60 series working OK if you have a low restriction exhaust, and a well tuned truck. You may be able to run well with a 44 series turbo & stock injectors if you don't run big boost. Many have run good numbers with stock injectors on larger turbos, but that is dangerous in my book, and the high octane being run is what allows those engines to live. For the PTE turbos, their housing is a high flow one, with a bit slower spool than regular 3 bolt housings that the ATR setups come with. I am guessing that a PTE44 will work on a well tuned truck on a stock converter & low restriction exhaust. If you have a stall, or are planning one, and want the most out of a turbo, the PTE51 may be the turbo for you. Don't get caught up in the bigger is better game. Responsiveness and bottom end spool are *very* important. The 44 has gone mid/high 11s in Buicks, and the 51 has gone low 11s in Buicks. If you are planning future mods and have a stall converter, or willing to sacrifice some drivability etc, a TE62 or PTE52 may fit your plans on your current stock motor. Stock intercooler with modifications (pump, 3/4" heater hose, aux. heat exchangers) should really be done before any turbo upgrades IMHO. I believe you will make good gains going to a larger IC once you go to a Garrett based turbo....
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------------------------------
*Mitsu turbo/stock motor*
I believe the 20g setup is as big as you -should- go on the stock injectors. It is a good turbo to bolt on if your stocker is dead, you want the stock look, or you just want a bit more turbo. I recommend the 20g with 10cm2 housing for those who want VERY stock drivability, on stock converter. The 20g with 14cm2 has a bit of lag with a stock converter, where a stall converter would make that large housing a bit more responsive on the bottom end. The 12cm2 housing is difficult to obtain, and I believe it requires machining to fit. I found a source for the 12cm2 housings, and they are expensive.
*small Garrett/stock motor*
Past the Mitsu point, the Garret turbos are hard to beat. Lots of combinations available. If you want to use a stock converter, the TE44 is best, with a 60 series working OK if you have a low restriction exhaust, and a well tuned truck. You may be able to run well with a 44 series turbo & stock injectors if you don't run big boost. Many have run good numbers with stock injectors on larger turbos, but that is dangerous in my book, and the high octane being run is what allows those engines to live. For the PTE turbos, their housing is a high flow one, with a bit slower spool than regular 3 bolt housings that the ATR setups come with. I am guessing that a PTE44 will work on a well tuned truck on a stock converter & low restriction exhaust. If you have a stall, or are planning one, and want the most out of a turbo, the PTE51 may be the turbo for you. Don't get caught up in the bigger is better game. Responsiveness and bottom end spool are *very* important. The 44 has gone mid/high 11s in Buicks, and the 51 has gone low 11s in Buicks. If you are planning future mods and have a stall converter, or willing to sacrifice some drivability etc, a TE62 or PTE52 may fit your plans on your current stock motor. Stock intercooler with modifications (pump, 3/4" heater hose, aux. heat exchangers) should really be done before any turbo upgrades IMHO. I believe you will make good gains going to a larger IC once you go to a Garrett based turbo....
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ghettosled
SYTY SUPERSTORE
it depends on what your goal is. I might brake it down like this: (*note* there are always exceptions, like Darrons sy and RIcks sy which runs 12.20s on a stock turbo) Then you can always mix and match turbine wheels and exhaust housings which play a huge role. BUt generally this is what you would hear from people who have these turbos(and run less then 22psi).
TE44: mid-high 12s
TE51: mid 12s
TE60: low 12s
TE63: High 11s
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60-1: high to mid 11s
T66: mid 11s
T68: low 11s/high 10s
T72: high 10s
TE44: mid-high 12s
TE51: mid 12s
TE60: low 12s
TE63: High 11s
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60-1: high to mid 11s
T66: mid 11s
T68: low 11s/high 10s
T72: high 10s
syowners friend
New member
Does the PTE51 take much modification, or is it close to stock size and hardware locations?
What are good sources for this unit (in Denver area) and what would one expect to pay?
Thanks
Sean
What are good sources for this unit (in Denver area) and what would one expect to pay?
Thanks
Sean
nightdiver
Active member
what are the mm of the 20Gs compressor induser ,and A|R ????????????????
ghettosled
SYTY SUPERSTORE
I'm not 100% sure on the exact compressor size on a typical 20g. BUT....
The problem most people get into is they assume they are all the same, and buy the cheapest one they can find. Just like any other turbo, some manufactors will offer a more power friendly 20gs. They might run a larger "h" turbine wheel, either clipped or not clipped, a larger turbine housing, some with a larger compressor housings etc.
The problem with Mitsu stuff is it is expensive. The ideal bolt on would be a mitsu turbine housing, with a full garret center section. This has been talked about, but nothing still actually in production. By the time you are done with a good mitsu turbo, the complete PTE kit or similar is probably the better buy for the money and comes with a downpipe, cutout, wastegate, and hi flow cat.
_________________
mike
93 twin turbo ty
http://www.arautosports.com
Mike@arautosports.com
310-573-9894
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ghettosled on 2002-01-06 11:47 ]</font>
The problem most people get into is they assume they are all the same, and buy the cheapest one they can find. Just like any other turbo, some manufactors will offer a more power friendly 20gs. They might run a larger "h" turbine wheel, either clipped or not clipped, a larger turbine housing, some with a larger compressor housings etc.
The problem with Mitsu stuff is it is expensive. The ideal bolt on would be a mitsu turbine housing, with a full garret center section. This has been talked about, but nothing still actually in production. By the time you are done with a good mitsu turbo, the complete PTE kit or similar is probably the better buy for the money and comes with a downpipe, cutout, wastegate, and hi flow cat.
_________________
mike
93 twin turbo ty
http://www.arautosports.com
Mike@arautosports.com
310-573-9894
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ghettosled on 2002-01-06 11:47 ]</font>
Silly
Banned
Not trying to start an arguement here or anything but where did you get them numbers mike? a TE63 good for high 11's? My Pt51 ran high 11's and I have seen as i know you have seen 63's go deep into the 11's. I belive a t66 is good enough for mid 10's. If not somethign else is being done wrong
ghettosled
SYTY SUPERSTORE
Like I said some trucks will be faster then others. A T66 is a good turbo for 600hp according to the compressor maps. 600hp in a syty should get you low 11s.
On PTE's site they say a PT51 is good to 585hp. Harry also sold me(and several others) T72's a long time ago, and said it would be what we needed to make 1000hp. :smile:
Harry's products are awesome, but turbo companies will always undersell you so you upgrade in the near future. I personally would not sell a 57mm turbo to someone who wanted to make close to 600hp in a syty. Maybe I am wrong, but its just me.
The conclusions I stated were from people who actually have legitimate time slips, not computer calculated garbage. I want my customers to have results they expect, not hopeless dreams.
I know of 5 sys with 72s in the 10.9-11.0 range. I know of 4 typhoons with TE63s running in the 12.0 range, etc etc... I have done my homework and this is what they tend to run with the turbo listed.
I'd also like to know who has a T66 and has run a 10.XX (AWD).. thanks
On PTE's site they say a PT51 is good to 585hp. Harry also sold me(and several others) T72's a long time ago, and said it would be what we needed to make 1000hp. :smile:
Harry's products are awesome, but turbo companies will always undersell you so you upgrade in the near future. I personally would not sell a 57mm turbo to someone who wanted to make close to 600hp in a syty. Maybe I am wrong, but its just me.
The conclusions I stated were from people who actually have legitimate time slips, not computer calculated garbage. I want my customers to have results they expect, not hopeless dreams.
I know of 5 sys with 72s in the 10.9-11.0 range. I know of 4 typhoons with TE63s running in the 12.0 range, etc etc... I have done my homework and this is what they tend to run with the turbo listed.
I'd also like to know who has a T66 and has run a 10.XX (AWD).. thanks
Ahh how'd you know what he told me? :wink:
You just know what the real world provides us, the rest of those flow maps etc are all most likely calculated under ideal situations which is nice to talk about but...
Proof is in the Pudding, remember talk is cheap :wink:
_________________
Ryan
'92 Odd-Ty
Engine by Ultratech
Drivetrain by Roadmaster
Every other wacky thing compliments of Rich "Pablo" Eartly and Brian "Rastaman" Green
ALDL Mode Racing
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: OddfireV6 on 2002-01-08 17:13 ]</font>
the Sandman
Member
Mike (et al) - the times you list for the turbos is helpful to some extent, but I'm more interested in street performance. My Syclone motor is about to be rebuilt(stock block and crank, forged internals, L35 heads, custom headers, and possibly some intake work) and I'm trying to zero in on a turbo. She's currently running an ATR TE44 with ATR downpipe and wastegate and Profec. At the moment the trans is stock with aftermarket TC (not 9/11, TCI I think) but that will be replaced by a Hartman trans so the TC will change. My primary goal is for fast acceleration off the line without powerbraking. Second priority is for part throttle driveability - I want the wife to be able to putt around in it and not complain about anything. Third priority is top end (This is important to me but the other considerations are more so). I have no plans for 1/4 mile racing, and no transbrake.
The ATR downpipe will be modified or replaced. I have a Kenne-Belle Big Boy wastegate I plan to use instead of the ATR unit. I am considering the ball bearing turbos but I'm wondering about the level of improvement for the high cost as well as the reliability - are these proven to hold up in the long term under heavy use?
So, which turbo would seem to fit my needs? KB wastegate OK? Profec OK or should I spring for the Innovative setup? What size injectors? Ultimate chip or SpeedPro? What stall on the 9/11?
ghettosled
SYTY SUPERSTORE
Sandman,
i think you are going to be happy with a smaller turbo. Obvioulsy top end will be compromised with slower spool, so you need to find a happy medium. Someone running 25psi on a Te44 with a stout motor and speedpro will obvioulsy run better then the times I posted before. But to the avg guy out there looking for a bolton for a stock motor, avg boost, etc. this is par for the course.
In the past, I have not been a believer in the ball bearing stuff. But now with the Innovative dual ball bearing design, it really is a night and day difference.
As for the wastegate, the KB one is ok.. same small flange as deltagate. Bigger would be better, but whatever. Modify the ATR setup if you have it, or mount it on the x-over.
If you have the funds, the Te44 dual ball bearing would be a really good choice. I would be happy to work with you to find the right combo, so just email me privately if you are interested
i think you are going to be happy with a smaller turbo. Obvioulsy top end will be compromised with slower spool, so you need to find a happy medium. Someone running 25psi on a Te44 with a stout motor and speedpro will obvioulsy run better then the times I posted before. But to the avg guy out there looking for a bolton for a stock motor, avg boost, etc. this is par for the course.
In the past, I have not been a believer in the ball bearing stuff. But now with the Innovative dual ball bearing design, it really is a night and day difference.
As for the wastegate, the KB one is ok.. same small flange as deltagate. Bigger would be better, but whatever. Modify the ATR setup if you have it, or mount it on the x-over.
If you have the funds, the Te44 dual ball bearing would be a really good choice. I would be happy to work with you to find the right combo, so just email me privately if you are interested
N
NicktheQuick
Guest
OK... DONE
Heh I am new here. I am from the DSM crowd and have been doing research on turbos for my car and others. Since the SyTy's use a mitsu turbo the upgrades are simular. I have come across two turbos that might interest you.
One is a hybrid. It is a Garret compressor wheel and housing mated to a mitsu center section and turbine side. The one I saw had a H3 compressor wheel with a TA housing. The hot side was a clipped TD06H. The turbo flowed 800 cfm I believe. The best part is that the turbo was to be a BOLT-ON!! No custom ANYTHING!!! It was retailing for around $925.
The Second was a "BOLT-ON" garret turbo. IT was avaiable in any combination that you could think of. 60-1 with the stage 5 turbine wheel. I was not sure of the exhaust a/r. How it is a bolt on is the turbine housing is a mitsu unit that has been machined to accept the garret center section and turbine wheel. The retail on them started around $1100. There was some custom work to the install, like the oil and coolant lines would have to be adapted to the garret style (compared to the mitsu). It is nothing a trip to the auto parts store would not take care of.. I would think. But the stock or upgraded downpipes would fit.
These combinations would give more flow than a 20G upgrade with better throttle response.
Email me at flick61@hotmail.com for more info.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: NicktheQuick on 2002-01-09 23:19 ]</font>
Ghettosled, when you say the dual ball bearing stuff from Innovative really is night and day, can you describe this a bit further? i.e. the transient response (throttle tip in) is much better, the same turbo setup will have a 500rpm earlier boost onset point with the bb, the same turbo setup can make more ultimate power with the bb, etc. Just trying to quantify night and day a bit..
Thanks
Thanks
The company I work for has some serious turbo experts, as well as full time guys from Garrett and such. Every one of them tells me the same story on the ball bearing turbos.
Transient response is noticeably better, overall efficiency might not be better, but the better response may allow a higher flowing turbo than if a non ball bearing turbo was used.
I work at a large diesel motor manufacturer, and the reason the diesel manufacturers aren't going ball bearing yet is because the ball bearing turbos are sensitive to the oil used, and diesels create dirty oil. They are already using AVNT type turbos, and would probably use the ball bearing type if durability wasn't an issue due to oil contamination.
I believe the Innovative turbos utilize a ball bearing design of their own, not like Garrett's or Turbonetics single ball bearing design.
Transient response is noticeably better, overall efficiency might not be better, but the better response may allow a higher flowing turbo than if a non ball bearing turbo was used.
I work at a large diesel motor manufacturer, and the reason the diesel manufacturers aren't going ball bearing yet is because the ball bearing turbos are sensitive to the oil used, and diesels create dirty oil. They are already using AVNT type turbos, and would probably use the ball bearing type if durability wasn't an issue due to oil contamination.
I believe the Innovative turbos utilize a ball bearing design of their own, not like Garrett's or Turbonetics single ball bearing design.
ghettosled
SYTY SUPERSTORE
I can't really explain the full details of how Innovative Ball bearing is setup. You can email rick head at innovative for a more elaborate explanation. But I can tell you that I have seen all 3 versions, and the innovative turbo spun noticabely better. One of the test vehicles would turn the motor off from an idle and you could hear the turbo whine down for 20sec.
spool up/ tip in will be excellent but I personally am not a huge believer that it will make more more hp or top end.
spool up/ tip in will be excellent but I personally am not a huge believer that it will make more more hp or top end.