Trollenfrak
I Rock
Does anyone use alcohol shots in their Ty, and what are any benefits compared to nitrous?(not that I'm planning on usin nos)
Alcohol Injection???
- Thread starter Trollenfrak
- Start date
Trollenfrak
I Rock
Re: Alcohol Injection???
Ok...
So more boost with alcy-hol and you'll last longer.... why do people even use nitrous then?
Ok...
So more boost with alcy-hol and you'll last longer.... why do people even use nitrous then?
Jimmy
Banned
Tooky
Serious about performance
Re: Alcohol Injection???
Nitrous introduces extra oxygen to the motor, allows much more fuel to be burnt. It's a power adder.
Alcohol is a high octane fuel, not a power adder. Think of alcohol like poor man's race gas. There's a lot of confusion between that when I tell people about my alcohol injection. They think it adds horsepower - it doesn't add horsepower any more than adding race gas adds horsepower.
Nitrous introduces extra oxygen to the motor, allows much more fuel to be burnt. It's a power adder.
Alcohol is a high octane fuel, not a power adder. Think of alcohol like poor man's race gas. There's a lot of confusion between that when I tell people about my alcohol injection. They think it adds horsepower - it doesn't add horsepower any more than adding race gas adds horsepower.
Trollenfrak
I Rock
Re: Alcohol Injection???
So basically alcohol just burns cleaner and lets you run at high boost better, but nitrous just makes your engine work harder than usual, so you can jump ahead at the last few feet of the race?
So basically alcohol just burns cleaner and lets you run at high boost better, but nitrous just makes your engine work harder than usual, so you can jump ahead at the last few feet of the race?
PPI Typhoon
DIY Madman
Re: Alcohol Injection???
I ran alky on my Ty. Homebuilt kit for approx $200.
Was able to pull off a 1.7 60' and a 13.2 time on a 130k mile motor.
Here was my results......26psi on pump gas, 0 knock.:tup:
Remember, essentially with nitrous, you're doing the same thing.....introducing more air into the motor........you have a turbo.....why not use it?
I ran alky on my Ty. Homebuilt kit for approx $200.
Was able to pull off a 1.7 60' and a 13.2 time on a 130k mile motor.
Here was my results......26psi on pump gas, 0 knock.:tup:
Remember, essentially with nitrous, you're doing the same thing.....introducing more air into the motor........you have a turbo.....why not use it?
blk00z28
Forced to by choice
Re: Alcohol Injection???
Man do I get that all the time.. More so with my Mustang buddies.. :roll: I just tell them its there to cool the intake charge and keep me from detonating, but then they are like "Cooling the intake = more hp." I'm like.. what, 10hp at that.. :roll: :rotf:
TookyCat said:
Man do I get that all the time.. More so with my Mustang buddies.. :roll: I just tell them its there to cool the intake charge and keep me from detonating, but then they are like "Cooling the intake = more hp." I'm like.. what, 10hp at that.. :roll: :rotf:
Tooky
Serious about performance
Re: Alcohol Injection???
Tell them to add race gas or alcohol to their (hopefully N/A) motors some time and ask them what kind of gains they recieved.
You got it man. The worst part is there was a Muscle Mustang & Fast Ford magazine article that was extremely misleading, they ran a supercharged mustang on pump gas and got some lame results, then they added the "Snow Performance BoostCooler" alcohol kit, turned up the boost and the timing, and got 80RWHP or some similar gain, leading the reader to conclude it was the alcohol that caused the gain! So now all these supercharged Mustang guys by me (whom always run 110 leaded fuel to begin with) are buying alcohol kits hoping to gain 80RWHP... :roll: No matter what I try to explain to them, the MM&FF is the Bible and I'm just a joker with a V6 truck :lol: You'd have to check the article, I might have got some of the details wrong from memory, but it was certainly misleading in either case.blk00z28 said:
Tell them to add race gas or alcohol to their (hopefully N/A) motors some time and ask them what kind of gains they recieved.
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dgoodhue
BuSTeD 4.3
Re: Alcohol Injection???
I had a friend in HS & College, that big into modifying cars and street racing. We both read the same magazines (yes I used to read MM&FF). I always like the really techy and mustang math articles, he rather read about how fast each car went with what combination. I think he used to have a notebook to track each combo. I always tried to figuire out why & how things worked or made HP & he memorized combinations. He could tell you how make 320 hp with a 5.0 but had no real idea why it was that way beside a memorized list of part and approx how hp each made. In some was those old 5.0's were good modifying for idiots, since most bolt on mods require no real tuning. I have met a bunch of ricers with this same mentality of memorizing parts.
TookyCat said:
I had a friend in HS & College, that big into modifying cars and street racing. We both read the same magazines (yes I used to read MM&FF). I always like the really techy and mustang math articles, he rather read about how fast each car went with what combination. I think he used to have a notebook to track each combo. I always tried to figuire out why & how things worked or made HP & he memorized combinations. He could tell you how make 320 hp with a 5.0 but had no real idea why it was that way beside a memorized list of part and approx how hp each made. In some was those old 5.0's were good modifying for idiots, since most bolt on mods require no real tuning. I have met a bunch of ricers with this same mentality of memorizing parts.
Tooky
Serious about performance
Re: Alcohol Injection???
Dave, I agree 100% about the memorizing mentality. I like the way you think. Just wait until you see the article I've been trying to get around to posting, on understanding how things work. It'll be right up your alley!! Hope I can post it tonight.
Dave, I agree 100% about the memorizing mentality. I like the way you think. Just wait until you see the article I've been trying to get around to posting, on understanding how things work. It'll be right up your alley!! Hope I can post it tonight.
Re: Alcohol Injection???
I'm interested in how and what you used to build your own kit.Do you mind sharing some information on your homemade kit?
PPI Typhoon said:I ran alky on my Ty. Homebuilt kit for approx $200.
Was able to pull off a 1.7 60' and a 13.2 time on a 130k mile motor.
Here was my results......26psi on pump gas, 0 knock.:tup:
Remember, essentially with nitrous, you're doing the same thing.....introducing more air into the motor........you have a turbo.....why not use it?
I'm interested in how and what you used to build your own kit.Do you mind sharing some information on your homemade kit?
Jer
Don't taze me bro!
Re: Alcohol Injection???
Building your own kit is one way to go but you'll need to do LOTS of research and you are your only tech support. Save yourself the headache and get Razor's kit. It's affordable, loaded with tons of features and his customer support is absolutely amazing. It's fully variable based on the readings it takes off of your MAP and ramps up your injection as your boost increases. Makes for a seamless tune and worry-free boosting. I plan to add this to all of my turbo charged vehicles.
Building your own kit is one way to go but you'll need to do LOTS of research and you are your only tech support. Save yourself the headache and get Razor's kit. It's affordable, loaded with tons of features and his customer support is absolutely amazing. It's fully variable based on the readings it takes off of your MAP and ramps up your injection as your boost increases. Makes for a seamless tune and worry-free boosting. I plan to add this to all of my turbo charged vehicles.
PPI Typhoon
DIY Madman
Re: Alcohol Injection???
I think that anyone with a little mechanical know-how and patience can do it. As far as "tech support", there's not a lot involved in this stuff. Granted, I didn't build a progressive controller (rather had a pressure switch or 'Hobbs'), but it worked very well. Only problem I had was with the pump seals, which is the same that some of Razor's customers had. Also when building it on your own.......you understand it fully, so you ARE your own tech support, and you know exactly what went into it. :tup: Just my :2cents:
Jer said:
I think that anyone with a little mechanical know-how and patience can do it. As far as "tech support", there's not a lot involved in this stuff. Granted, I didn't build a progressive controller (rather had a pressure switch or 'Hobbs'), but it worked very well. Only problem I had was with the pump seals, which is the same that some of Razor's customers had. Also when building it on your own.......you understand it fully, so you ARE your own tech support, and you know exactly what went into it. :tup: Just my :2cents:
PPI Typhoon
DIY Madman
Re: Alcohol Injection???
I'm half asleep, so I'll add to this list if I forget anything. I just did a lot of research online to figure out what you need.
Shurflo pump (specific high pressure model, base 60psi)
http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=6970&productId=9414&R=9414
20' of hose (I mounted my pump and tank in the back)
Water container (picked up a 2 gallon rubbermaid at Walmart)
Water solenoid (got this through McMaster-Carr)
Water nozzle (also through McMaster-Carr, got the M10 and M15 models)
McMaster-Carr part #'s M10 - 3178K76 M15 - 3178K77
Hobbs switch (pressure switch found at Napa)
Misc. wiring
LED for turn-on light
Misc hardware from Ace Hardware for hooking up Hobbs switch to intake plenum
The pump has a pressure switch built into it. When up to pressure, it shuts off. So you can wire this how you like, I put it to constant 12V with a switch.
The Hobbs switch is a pressure switch which can be adjusted for it's switching point based on manifold pressure. By using a combination of fittings from Ace, I made a setup that allowed me to tap into the brake booster line outlet.
That Hobbs switch operates the solenoid. This solenoid is normally closed and opens to release the pressurized alcohol/water to the nozzle
The nozzle is mounted close to the throttle body. I started with the M10 nozzle (I believe 10gal/hr) and it worked fine for my application.
So basically the operation is this:
Initially, pump turns on, pressurizing line
When you hit the desired boost........it triggers the Hobbs switch, releasing the water to the nozzle.
When going below desired boost..........the solenoid closes due to the Hobbs switch disengaging.
The "tuning" involved primarily is the Hobbs turn-on point and the pump pressure. I ran datamaster over and over until I had a good combination. My switch was set to approx 10 psi of boost and I am not sure what I had the pump pressure at, but it was cranked up a bit. I eventually blew the seal though and had to buy a new pump (got this fancy $250 pump, with a microchip controller.........worked quite well still at just 60psi).
I pulled this system out when I did the recent mods, but only because of not wanting to install that at the same time. Once I get the truck running right on the new hardware, you best believe that the alky will be going back on the truck.:tup:
I'll add more as I get links and such.
Here are some links to instructions:
http://members.cox.net/stevemonroe/AlcoholInjMod.html
http://bavellar.home.comcast.net/Alcohol.htm
http://www.dawesdevices.com/howto.html
http://www.turbomirage.com/water.html
And of course......here are some vendors:
http://www.alkycontrol.com/ <-----by far the best kit out there to date
http://www.devilsownonline.com/
http://www.smcenterprises.com/alcohol.htm
typhoon92 said:
I'm half asleep, so I'll add to this list if I forget anything. I just did a lot of research online to figure out what you need.
Shurflo pump (specific high pressure model, base 60psi)
http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=6970&productId=9414&R=9414
20' of hose (I mounted my pump and tank in the back)
Water container (picked up a 2 gallon rubbermaid at Walmart)
Water solenoid (got this through McMaster-Carr)
Water nozzle (also through McMaster-Carr, got the M10 and M15 models)
McMaster-Carr part #'s M10 - 3178K76 M15 - 3178K77
Hobbs switch (pressure switch found at Napa)
Misc. wiring
LED for turn-on light
Misc hardware from Ace Hardware for hooking up Hobbs switch to intake plenum
The pump has a pressure switch built into it. When up to pressure, it shuts off. So you can wire this how you like, I put it to constant 12V with a switch.
The Hobbs switch is a pressure switch which can be adjusted for it's switching point based on manifold pressure. By using a combination of fittings from Ace, I made a setup that allowed me to tap into the brake booster line outlet.
That Hobbs switch operates the solenoid. This solenoid is normally closed and opens to release the pressurized alcohol/water to the nozzle
The nozzle is mounted close to the throttle body. I started with the M10 nozzle (I believe 10gal/hr) and it worked fine for my application.
So basically the operation is this:
Initially, pump turns on, pressurizing line
When you hit the desired boost........it triggers the Hobbs switch, releasing the water to the nozzle.
When going below desired boost..........the solenoid closes due to the Hobbs switch disengaging.
The "tuning" involved primarily is the Hobbs turn-on point and the pump pressure. I ran datamaster over and over until I had a good combination. My switch was set to approx 10 psi of boost and I am not sure what I had the pump pressure at, but it was cranked up a bit. I eventually blew the seal though and had to buy a new pump (got this fancy $250 pump, with a microchip controller.........worked quite well still at just 60psi).
I pulled this system out when I did the recent mods, but only because of not wanting to install that at the same time. Once I get the truck running right on the new hardware, you best believe that the alky will be going back on the truck.:tup:
I'll add more as I get links and such.
Here are some links to instructions:
http://members.cox.net/stevemonroe/AlcoholInjMod.html
http://bavellar.home.comcast.net/Alcohol.htm
http://www.dawesdevices.com/howto.html
http://www.turbomirage.com/water.html
And of course......here are some vendors:
http://www.alkycontrol.com/ <-----by far the best kit out there to date
http://www.devilsownonline.com/
http://www.smcenterprises.com/alcohol.htm
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Jer
Don't taze me bro!
Re: Alcohol Injection???
There's a few things I don't see in your list. What about a low level indicator? The other thing I see missing would be the control module to make the kit progressive. I think this is where a chunk of the money goes when you buy a Razor because there's plenty of research and development that goes into that. That being said, I personally wouldn't run an injection kit w/o having it progressive.
You say that you don't need tech support and I disagree. You become your own tech support and by this I mean there is lots of testing and tuning involved as well as lots of research on injection kits. If you're going to jump into something as delicate as injection liquid into the intake of you engine at high boost w/o knowing what you're doing it WILL cost you a great deal at some point. Personally, all these time killers and the fact that it's progressive makes it WELL worth the extra $200 in my opinion. I prefer to place the order, and install the parts that arrive and drive down to road within 98% of the tuning window I need to be in. I've had a couple issues arise since installing and Julio was lightning fast with his responses and it would have taken me some time to research it and figure it out myself. I was getting some EMI from the pump and he even shipped me out a bunch of additional parts to cure this. Top notch customer service like this is hard to find in this day and age and is another huge reason to purchase the Razor alky kit.
With that, my opinion is that I will add a Razor kit to ALL of my turbocharged vehicles. I'm sold.
Just my
PPI Typhoon said:
There's a few things I don't see in your list. What about a low level indicator? The other thing I see missing would be the control module to make the kit progressive. I think this is where a chunk of the money goes when you buy a Razor because there's plenty of research and development that goes into that. That being said, I personally wouldn't run an injection kit w/o having it progressive.
You say that you don't need tech support and I disagree. You become your own tech support and by this I mean there is lots of testing and tuning involved as well as lots of research on injection kits. If you're going to jump into something as delicate as injection liquid into the intake of you engine at high boost w/o knowing what you're doing it WILL cost you a great deal at some point. Personally, all these time killers and the fact that it's progressive makes it WELL worth the extra $200 in my opinion. I prefer to place the order, and install the parts that arrive and drive down to road within 98% of the tuning window I need to be in. I've had a couple issues arise since installing and Julio was lightning fast with his responses and it would have taken me some time to research it and figure it out myself. I was getting some EMI from the pump and he even shipped me out a bunch of additional parts to cure this. Top notch customer service like this is hard to find in this day and age and is another huge reason to purchase the Razor alky kit.
With that, my opinion is that I will add a Razor kit to ALL of my turbocharged vehicles. I'm sold.
Just my
PPI Typhoon
DIY Madman
Re: Alcohol Injection???
Well, as far as the low level indicator.......that could be done easy enough for less than $10. I just eyeball it if I know I'm going to be using it. As far as the progressive controller.....I've designed a progressive controller that PWM a solenoid. I also understand how to design one that varies the pump voltage as Razor's kit does. I don't want to step on any toes, which is why I haven't pursued that other than for personal use. But a properly tuned switch system actually performed on my setup quite nicely. The turn-on point isn't harsh at all and doesn't bog down my truck. I also have helped another board member put this on his truck and hasn't had a bog-down either. It's very low maintenance.....easily tuned.....and had exceptional results.
Yes.....I agree that the progressive setup is better for tuning. But.....I've not found it necessary for the costs.
As far as tech support..........again. If you design it yourself, you know what it involves..........makes it unnecessary for even having to send an email. You KNOW what's wrong with it and fix it immediately.
I guess being a DIY kind of person......I disagree with the cost being worth it. Also being in electronics engineering for 10 years, I see what it takes to build a controller which would vary the pump voltage and just don't see the justification in the price.
HOWEVER, I do agree that Razor's kit is HANDS DOWN the best one out there for one if you want to spend the money. Props to him and his setup. It has found it's way into many cars and has had excellent results. :tup:
I just was offering options. That's all.
Jer said:There's a few things I don't see in your list. What about a low level indicator? The other thing I see missing would be the control module to make the kit progressive. I think this is where a chunk of the money goes when you buy a Razor because there's plenty of research and development that goes into that. That being said, I personally wouldn't run an injection kit w/o having it progressive.
You say that you don't need tech support and I disagree. You become your own tech support and by this I mean there is lots of testing and tuning involved as well as lots of research on injection kits. If you're going to jump into something as delicate as injection liquid into the intake of you engine at high boost w/o knowing what you're doing it WILL cost you a great deal at some point. Personally, all these time killers and the fact that it's progressive makes it WELL worth the extra $200 in my opinion. I prefer to place the order, and install the parts that arrive and drive down to road within 98% of the tuning window I need to be in. I've had a couple issues arise since installing and Julio was lightning fast with his responses and it would have taken me some time to research it and figure it out myself. I was getting some EMI from the pump and he even shipped me out a bunch of additional parts to cure this. Top notch customer service like this is hard to find in this day and age and is another huge reason to purchase the Razor alky kit.
With that, my opinion is that I will add a Razor kit to ALL of my turbocharged vehicles. I'm sold.
Just my
Well, as far as the low level indicator.......that could be done easy enough for less than $10. I just eyeball it if I know I'm going to be using it. As far as the progressive controller.....I've designed a progressive controller that PWM a solenoid. I also understand how to design one that varies the pump voltage as Razor's kit does. I don't want to step on any toes, which is why I haven't pursued that other than for personal use. But a properly tuned switch system actually performed on my setup quite nicely. The turn-on point isn't harsh at all and doesn't bog down my truck. I also have helped another board member put this on his truck and hasn't had a bog-down either. It's very low maintenance.....easily tuned.....and had exceptional results.
Yes.....I agree that the progressive setup is better for tuning. But.....I've not found it necessary for the costs.
As far as tech support..........again. If you design it yourself, you know what it involves..........makes it unnecessary for even having to send an email. You KNOW what's wrong with it and fix it immediately.
I guess being a DIY kind of person......I disagree with the cost being worth it. Also being in electronics engineering for 10 years, I see what it takes to build a controller which would vary the pump voltage and just don't see the justification in the price.
HOWEVER, I do agree that Razor's kit is HANDS DOWN the best one out there for one if you want to spend the money. Props to him and his setup. It has found it's way into many cars and has had excellent results. :tup:
I just was offering options. That's all.