Another ATR Header rant (with pics).

[RSpengler]

Alright, so, three steps forward, two steps back.

I installed my Custom steering shaft that I got out of a 1992 Jeep Wrangler (I cut about 7 inches out of the middle), its got universal joints and no rag joints. I deleted my ABS without the help of the ABS delete kit and I installed my ATR headers... Kinda.

These headers are so stupid I swear they may not even be ATR. First, I had an issue with fitment because the driver side header was hitting the brake line loop below the ABS. So I deleted the ABS and got rid of the loop, problem solved (my ABS didnt work anyways).


Next the hole for the coolant temp sensor that screws into the side of the head is half covered by the header flange on both sides of the motor. So I deal with that and just pull the temp sensor and figure I'm just going to notch the headers to make it fit. If you look hard in the picture below, you can see the half moon above the flange.


Next, I bolt up the Passenger side header and the damn downpipe is half an inch away from being able to bolt up because the DP hits the headers!!! It looks like Im gonna have to cut my downpipe, twist it and reweld.... GAH... Has ANYBODY had these problems with ATR's before? Or did I just get a bad set, or as I'm wondering, are they not even ATR....

 

[VermontTy]

Re: Another ATR Header rant (with pics).

Posts about how much of a pain in the ass both ATR and KB headers are....4,693,277.

Posts documenting any substantial power increase with header use...0 and counting.


Sealed the deal for me when Nolan went 10.79 in his Typhoon with stock exhaust manifolds and crossover.

 

[ghettosled]

Re: Another ATR Header rant (with pics).

well you probably have vortec heads in which case the coolant port for the temp sensor is different then the stock oem syty heads which the headers were designed for. Pain in the ass but not a big deal. As for the downpipe it looks like the tubes on #4/#6 have some extra weld on the upper portion. Were these purchased new or used? Ive seen em touch on the 3" downpipes occationally but not a stock downpipe. No doubt there has been some issues, hopefully you can resolve them without too much trouble.

 

[RSpengler]

Re: Another ATR Header rant (with pics).

I dont need a dyno to tell me what flows better. I can SEE that the ATR headers are much better than the stock manifolds. As for Nolans 10.79, if he had headers instead of manifolds maybe he would have gone 10.50 or better, so I think that is a moot point. Regardless of the lack of documented gains the stock manifolds and crossover ARE a restriction which aftermarket headers address (although maybe not so gracefully).

I do have vortecs and I guess that explains the coolant temp sensor issue, and I bought them used which explains the extra material on 4 and 6. Maybe I'll just bang the stock downpipe flat where its touching for now to get it running, and fab up a 3" downpipe when I have some extra cash.

Thanks,
-Rob

 

[MikeRenz]

Re: Another ATR Header rant (with pics).

how much header wrap do you have on that downpipe...would it hit if you removed that?

 

[VermontTy]

Re: Another ATR Header rant (with pics).

I dont need a dyno to tell me what flows better. I can SEE that the ATR headers are much better than the stock manifolds.

....and I can SEE that a GT47 will flow more air than the stock turbo, but that doesn't mean its the right choice. If there is a vehicle in this world that's the posterchild for "it's not what's under the hood, it's what you do with it.", it's our trucks. There are plenty of nutty fast trucks out there with stock turbos and manifolds that are dialed in nicely and tuned to the hilt. There are probably 10 times as many "slow" shitty running trucks out there for what they have under the hood; headers, huge turbos, big fuel systems and advanced electronics. I'm not trying to be a prick Rob, but if you're going to run so hard, and have it dialed in SO well that the stock exhaust manifolds are what holds you back, then seriously, more power to you........

 

[Tooky]

Re: Another ATR Header rant (with pics).

Posts about how much of a pain in the ass both ATR and KB headers are....4,693,277.

Posts documenting any substantial power increase with header use...0 and counting.

VermontTy, you're my new best friend!! Where were you a few years back when I posted frequently?

Sealed the deal for me when Nolan went 10.79 in his Typhoon with stock exhaust manifolds and crossover.

Me too, bro..

RSpengler has got a point though, headers make enormous gains on N/A motors, like 40-50HP!!! Especially when the heads and cam have been modified. I'm not sure how it works when you've got a turbo choking the exhaust though. But you've got a point (VermontTy), there hasn't been anybody on SyTy who has proven a gain with headers. I will say the same thing for air to air intercoolers, racing radiators and electric fans, and a host of other things but I don't wanna pollute RSpengler's thread.. (My apologies as this was probably already a bit much. )

 

[RSpengler]

Re: Another ATR Header rant (with pics).

Thanks guys. I chopped a notch in the header for the coolant temp sensor and now it fits. Plus I took a hammer and banged the downpipe once and now it fits as well. Its raining now though, so I can bolt them completely back up...

Vermont, I wasn't trying to be a prick either and BTW, my truck is one of those "slow" shitty running trucks that has all kinds of big parts on it... lol
The reason I bought the ATR headers was because my passenger side manifold was cracked and they were decently priced...
-Rob

 

[Deanzsyclone]

Re: Another ATR Header rant (with pics).

It would be interesting to see a pic of some vortec heads exaust port and a pic of a stock syty header exhaust inlet side by side ??

 

[SyTyJedi]

Re: Another ATR Header rant (with pics).

The stock manifolds do well because of their heat retention as well. Flow is not everything. I'll use a great example:

A guy on LS1tech has an LS1 Z28 with one of the STS rear mount turbos. He has headers on the car and the turbo spool up is slow and he cannot get the boost level he wants. Switches back to stock manifolds that flow worse than headers. Spool up is vasty improved and turbo output is right at the desired level. This is with the turbo in the rear of the car mind you, which bleeds off some of the heat energy before it reaches the turbo.

Thought that may be helpful...

 

[Tooky]

Re: Another ATR Header rant (with pics).

Tyler, that is an incredibly interesting comparison!! I'm going to let that one soak in my brain for a while... In the meantime do you happen to have a link to the thread?

All this stuff leads to the crucial need, for scientific comparisons. That is:

Form a hypothesis.
Test existing conditions.
Change only one thing.
Compare results.
Draw conclusions.

 

[Wikid 1]

Re: Another ATR Header rant (with pics).

i see where the flow differences are, but for the price and obvious problems i'm gonna port my stockers, either way there's still a brick wall at the end that you have to overcome...

 

[Deanzsyclone]

Re: Another ATR Header rant (with pics).

I thought the main use of the aftermarket headers were so you could gain clearance to bolt up a larger turbo?

 

[RSpengler]

Re: Another ATR Header rant (with pics).

Heat does drive the turbo as well as gas pressure, but the STS turbo system mentioned above is WAY back in the system, whereas our turbos are ALOT closer to the engine and heat loss would not be nearly as significant. Just my 2 cents <shrug>.

BTW, I wrapped my crossover to keep that heat headed where it needs to go...
-Rob

 

[VermontTy]

Re: Another ATR Header rant (with pics).

I thought the main use of the aftermarket headers were so you could gain clearance to bolt up a larger turbo?

nah....from what I've seen, the turbo size is limited mostly by the AC bracket / compressor. Nolan put a 76BB on his truck and had to make a 1" spacer between the manifold and turbo flange to move it away from the bracket.

 

[dgoodhue]

Re: Another ATR Header rant (with pics).

The stock manifolds do well because of their heat retention as well. Flow is not everything. I'll use a great example:

A guy on LS1tech has an LS1 Z28 with one of the STS rear mount turbos. He has headers on the car and the turbo spool up is slow and he cannot get the boost level he wants. Switches back to stock manifolds that flow worse than headers. Spool up is vasty improved and turbo output is right at the desired level. This is with the turbo in the rear of the car mind you, which bleeds off some of the heat energy before it reaches the turbo.

Thought that may be helpful...

This is my guess/opinion. The Heat difference from a cast/tube manifold is going to play much of a role in a rear mounted turbo. The less the 12" cast manifold is going to be negated by 8' of exhaust tubing.

I would guess the issue is the size of the exhaust and volume of exhaust due to displacement & rpm an engine would make, if he had 1 3/4" heads with 3" collectors that are a lot more volume vs. ~1 1/2" with 2 1/4" and collectors. If he did measure a difference in heat is more likely due to the size of the piping and the ability of the engine to fill the exhaust than the cast manifolds.

 

[VermontTy]

Re: Another ATR Header rant (with pics).

The reason I bought the ATR headers was because my passenger side manifold was cracked and they were decently priced...
-Rob

You can have a cracked manifold welded and repaired; just make sure the person welding it really knows what the heck is going on; not everyone can successfully weld cast. This was mine.

 

[RSpengler]

Re: Another ATR Header rant (with pics).

I know. But I saw the chance for the headers and jumped on it.

BTW, very nice job repairing it. Looks great!
-Rob

 

[mrweelr]

Re: Another ATR Header rant (with pics).

I had the exact same issues you mentioned when installing my ATR headers. Big waste of $2000 IMO, but maybe they'll pay dividends later on when I install a built motor. For the brake line interference, I just unbolted the clip and bent the line slightly to allow for clearance. The power steering hard line was also interfering which had to be slightly bent/tweaked. The big showstopper was the downpipe to header interference issue you mentioned. My turbo would not mate up with the downpipe for the same reason you noted. I ended up buying a T3 flange on eBay and having my friend (machinist) port match it to the header flange/turbo inlet. This T3 flange/spacer gave me the clearance I needed (just barely) and solved a BIG problem. The headers have been holding up great since I got those issues worked out.

 

[cloneman315]

Re: Another ATR Header rant (with pics).

i have the same headers and have had none of the problems most have had other than the coolant sensor i just put mine in my intake and extended the wire maybe i have just got lucky so far,as far as gains i havent dyno tested them but i truely believe after having bought headers they ARE well worth the money and they def make a difference especially on a motor with big heads valves turbo etc etc