Distributerless Ignition possiblity.. (working on it)

[fivetodrive]

Re: Distributerless Ignition possiblity.. (working on it)

I remembered a post about this when nolan used ls1 coils but that was pretty expensive at the time. Well it still is... The problem still looks to be the dampner or the lower pulley... Were any other lower pulleys not out so far? or any newer dampners not as wide? Going off my memory (which is sketcy at best) I thougt some of the later 4.3's (balance shaft) had something different at the front of the crank. Gotta do some more searching...

It seems that the main problem is making the belt line up... and a custom lower pulley would be expensive... Unless some of the SBC guys already have one? Maybe I can look at a stock pulley and measure it up...

I need to reread this thread...
http://www.syty.net/forums/showthread.php?t=13662&highlight=ignition

 

[turbodig]

Re: Distributerless Ignition possiblity.. (working on it)

I remembered a post about this when nolan used ls1 coils but that was pretty expensive at the time. Well it still is... The problem still looks to be the dampner or the lower pulley... Were any other lower pulleys not out so far? or any newer dampners not as wide? Going off my memory (which is sketcy at best) I thougt some of the later 4.3's (balance shaft) had something different at the front of the crank. Gotta do some more searching...

I need to reread this thread...
http://www.syty.net/forums/showthread.php?t=13662&highlight=ignition

It becomes easier with an SBC dampener that doesn't have the inner ring.... but the idea is to not have to buy a whole bunch of parts.

The late 4.3 had a different timing cover and a wheel on the snout of the crank.
Aside from being the wrong wheel, replacing a crankshaft to get a DIS system doesn't
seem like a worthwhile proposition.

The LS1 setups done previously involved the EDIST, or an aftermarket ECU.

Just pulling some $$ figures off the top of my head.

Let's say the wheel costs $60.
Sensor bracket $35

Used 3.1 coilpack and module $40 (I got one for $35)
Misc wiring/connectors $25
Plug wires $35

Reprogram chip $30

$215 gets it all done.

FAST EDIST is $411, then you have to add the price of LS1 coils, and a trigger distributor.
You're pushing $1000, if not a little more.

 

[ashman]

Re: Distributerless Ignition possiblity.. (working on it)

$215 gets it all done.

:thumbsup:

SIGN ME UP

 

[CLONE]

Re: Distributerless Ignition possiblity.. (working on it)

I've looked at doing odd-fire support in the code, but it would require that the ECM knows where the #1 cylinder is.

Would a modified reluctor wheel in the distributor that only had 1 tooth provide the necessary signal?

 

[turbodig]

Re: Distributerless Ignition possiblity.. (working on it)

Would a modified reluctor wheel in the distributor that only had 1 tooth provide the necessary signal?

It could, but the ecm in stock form has no facility to recieve it.
Lotta work necessary to make that go.

 

[2kwik4u]

Re: Distributerless Ignition possiblity.. (working on it)

It could, but the ecm in stock form has no facility to recieve it.
Lotta work necessary to make that go.

I've seen a 3.8 T-Type with a coil pack run on a Sy/Ty ECM. Could part of the code that was used for that be implemented into the current code? I would assume the need for crank and cam sensors would still be needed though.

Any thoughts on that from our resident coding guru?

 

[turbodig]

Re: Distributerless Ignition possiblity.. (working on it)

I've seen a 3.8 T-Type with a coil pack run on a Sy/Ty ECM. Could part of the code that was used for that be implemented into the current code? I would assume the need for crank and cam sensors would still be needed though.

The ECM didn't really do anything with the Cam sensor in that application. It was running the same code, with a few changes for timing.

Having a true indicator of where #1 is would be useful for other things... knock in relation to cylinder position, etc.

At the end of the day, all the ecm wants is a ref pulse every time a cylinder is at TDC. It doesn't care what cylinder is #1, it's timing and fueling them all the same. The 2.8/3.1 module needs the 7th pulse, though, so it knows which coil pack to fire in the proper sequence.

A sequential ECM is a different beast, since it needs to know which cyl is at TDC *and* which stroke of the cycle that TDC is on. Then it can fire each injector appropriately, and do things like timing skew for individual cylinders.

This is a bit out of scope for the current project, though. One thing at a time.

 

[fivetodrive]

Re: Distributerless Ignition possiblity.. (working on it)

It becomes easier with an SBC dampener that doesn't have the inner ring.... but the idea is to not have to buy a whole bunch of parts.

The late 4.3 had a different timing cover and a wheel on the snout of the crank.
Aside from being the wrong wheel, replacing a crankshaft to get a DIS system doesn't
seem like a worthwhile proposition.

The LS1 setups done previously involved the EDIST, or an aftermarket ECU.

Just pulling some $$ figures off the top of my head.

Let's say the wheel costs $60.
Sensor bracket $35

Used 3.1 coilpack and module $40 (I got one for $35)
Misc wiring/connectors $25
Plug wires $35

Reprogram chip $30

$215 gets it all done.

FAST EDIST is $411, then you have to add the price of LS1 coils, and a trigger distributor.
You're pushing $1000, if not a little more.

Nolan's setup (LS1 coils) was close to $2k That is why few people have done it...

For less than $250 a lot of people would do this!

When you said $60 for the wheel was that the machining cost the current one? orjust getting a SBC one like this:

http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_10001_10002_24246_-1

Would that allow enough space for the 7-tooth wheel? Would the wheel go on first and then the damper or between the damper and pulley? It sounds like first would be better to keep vibration in check but is it possible?

 

[turbodig]

Re: Distributerless Ignition possiblity.. (working on it)

Nolan's setup (LS1 coils) was close to $2k That is why few people have done it...

For less than $250 a lot of people would do this!

When you said $60 for the wheel was that the machining cost the current one? orjust getting a SBC one like this:

That's a pull-it-out-of-my-butt guess, since it doesn't exist, and Renz would have to make it.
I can't fathom that it would ever cost more than $100. Hard to say until it actually gets made.
It's a pretty simple part for a water jet, and no bending involved.

The sensor bracket might be more, too. Hard to say until it actually gets made.

 

[turbodig]

Re: Distributerless Ignition possiblity.. (working on it)

Would that allow enough space for the 7-tooth wheel? Would the wheel go on first and then the damper or between the damper and pulley? It sounds like first would be better to keep vibration in check but is it possible?

That'd work too, since the back is flat. SBC balancers, like I said, are easier, since they're flat on the back.

Our stock balancer is a different beast. It's got an inner ring on the back that's fairly close to the timing cover. This limits how you can mount a toothed ring.

 

[UR50SLO]

Re: Distributerless Ignition possiblity.. (working on it)

I kept my stock ballancer off the Typhoon. Looks like we can bolt on a wheel on the back side of a stock ballancer with no problems.
(Bolting it to several holes there around the outside ring) *on the back side* 1/4 20 bolts
would fit.
Plenty of room behind the ballancer to make a nice thick steel plate.
There is at least room for 1/2-3/4 wheel.

Then come off the T-chain cover (bolts) or water pump with a bracket to hold the sensor

If you've got a aftermarket ballancer we'd need to make one that epoxy's on or drill/tap. Or possibly use the three bolts that hold the pully on (longer one's and grab it there with nuts on the back side. Or send it to one of us and we can install it. We'd have to make the bracket to have some adjustment for height/distance anyway.
If we go this route all the ballancers would have to come off in order to install the wheel unless we make it a 2peice for stock applications.

Most people have stock ballancers so the aftermarket ballancer is another issue that could be a little more involved. They'll still use the stock allignment at 0degrees to line up with.

The first thing we'll need is the spacing of the wheel gaps and the wheel size. After that I can mock it up here and make a bracket that will hold the sensor in place then Renz can duplicate it as a nice Jetted peice.
How do we find out the spacing on the wheel and the diameter????
I can send someone off my stock ballancer (dig) if you don't have one and see if we can get a size and spacing part done.
Let me know I can have it UPS'd tomorrow. :tup:

I just put T-Chain and gears in the 1998 Jimmy. The crank trigger they use is a 3wire sensor that reads a 3 position wheel in front of the lower t-chain sprocket. It's got a groove in it that slides over the Crank Key way for allignment. It gets held in place when you install the ballnacer.
~Scott

 

[skwayb]

Re: Distributerless Ignition possiblity.. (working on it)

Nolan's setup (LS1 coils) was close to $2k That is why few people have done it...

For less than $250 a lot of people would do this!

When you said $60 for the wheel was that the machining cost the current one? orjust getting a SBC one like this:

http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_10001_10002_24246_-1

Would that allow enough space for the 7-tooth wheel? Would the wheel go on first and then the damper or between the damper and pulley? It sounds like first would be better to keep vibration in check but is it possible?

I have the full setup and it was $1300 and I have the MSD Cam Sync instead of the vortec dist.

LS1 Coils for the 6.0L Truck - $180 used for 8 Coils (2 extras) and the stock brackets
Edist - $399
MSD Cam Sync - $150
Mallory Crank Trigger - $249
LS1 MSD Wires - $58.00
Fluidampr Balancer $275
Total --------- $1311

I haven't installed it yet because I still need to solve the crank pulley being spaced out too far for the belt to line up. Same issue you will have with the 7 Tooth setup.

Maybe Bully or Renz could make us a custom Crank Pulley for the 7 Tooth setup......

 

[turbodig]

Re: Distributerless Ignition possiblity.. (working on it)

I kept my stock ballancer off the Typhoon. Looks like we can bolt on a wheel on the back side of a stock ballancer with no problems.
(Bolting it to several holes there around the outside ring) *on the back side* 1/4 20 bolts
would fit.
Plenty of room behind the ballancer to make a nice thick steel plate.
There is at least room for 1/2-3/4 wheel.

Via tapping the holes? That's kinda where I was going.

1/2 would be good... would allow more margin for sensor alignment.

Then come off the T-chain cover (bolts) or water pump with a bracket to hold the sensor

I was thinking of the bolts the aftermarket ones use, lower accy. bracket
The sensor has to be really solid.

If you've got a aftermarket ballancer we'd need to make one that epoxy's on or drill/tap. Or possibly use the three bolts that hold the pully on (longer one's and grab it there with nuts on the back side. Or send it to one of us and we can install it. We'd have to make the bracket to have some adjustment for height/distance anyway.
If we go this route all the ballancers would have to come off in order to install the wheel unless we make it a 2peice for stock applications.

If we have to tap the balancer holes, it's gotta come off anyway.

I'm thinking it's gotta be one piece. You'd have to be supremely confident about those holes around the outer edge being constant, and I'm not.

I gotta look at this some more... the ring needs to be direct to the crank, not isolated by rubber.

Most people have stock ballancers so the aftermarket ballancer is another issue that could be a little more involved. They'll still use the stock allignment at 0degrees to line up with.

The aftermarket ones are easy... you just use the 3 holes in the middle. Pulley bolts don't
go all the way through. We'll need to do 2 rings to cover either case.

The first thing we'll need is the spacing of the wheel gaps and the wheel size. After that I can mock it up here and make a bracket that will hold the sensor in place then Renz can duplicate it as a nice Jetted peice.
How do we find out the spacing on the wheel and the diameter????
I can send someone off my stock ballancer (dig) if you don't have one and see if we can get a size and spacing part done.
Let me know I can have it UPS'd tomorrow. :tup:

I've got a balancer. I've also got all the specs... It's fairly simple, that way.

I just put T-Chain and gears in the 1998 Jimmy. The crank trigger they use is a 3wire sensor that reads a 3 position wheel in front of the lower t-chain sprocket. It's got a groove in it that slides over the Crank Key way for allignment. It gets held in place when you install the ballnacer.
~Scott

Interesting. Is the crank snout longer? Could you put the cover on our motor?

 

[SY2455]

Re: Distributerless Ignition possiblity.. (working on it)

Could you put the cover on our motor?

This cover is for 1995-2004 engines, 05-07 is another cover.

Dumb ? follows, If on our engines when we check timing, we use the slot that is cut into the balancer to show timing. Here comes the dumb ?. Why can't you take a balancer and index it for the 7 that you need? I hope this makes sense. For those that race you can use balancers with a part # of 24502534 or 24502535. These balancers have a 2 piece design to them.

 

[mattw]

Re: Distributerless Ignition possiblity.. (working on it)

I've got a blown(spun #6 bearing) 99 4.3 sitting on an engine stand up at my parents. I also have a 92 TBI 4.3 sitting around(same balancer, timing cover as ours). If I have time I can try the 99 cover, bracket, and sensor on the 92 block this weekend. I'll take some pics too..

This is a great thread. I'd love to be able to throw a system like this together for a few hundred dollars.


-Matt

 

[UR50SLO]

Re: Distributerless Ignition possiblity.. (working on it)

Dig...... I'm cofident in the holes going around the stock ballancer. I think they'll work good. You'll need 1/4 20 bolts/nuts. Nothing more.*no tapping* 4 bolts/nuts/washers should be fine. If you've got the spec's for the wheel then heck we are almost there!

The Crank sensor on the 98 model could be mounted to a bracket. It has a O-ring seal and is made to "slide" into the front T-cover. We could easily make a bracket that comes off the Accry. bracket as you described that has a long shaft with a hole in the middle (like a injector bung) that the 98 sensor would slide into. The mounting tab that is on the sensor could be spaced out with washers to set the sensor depth on different trucks/ballancers.

The Old blocks like ours can not be updated to use the newer T-covers or sensor/wheel. The T-covers on the newer motors are plastic and are alot longer due to the new engines having the ballance shaft.

I'd have to go take a magnet to our stock ballancer. I think it's cast. Plus cutting out gaps of metal in it wouldn't be a good Idea for ballance if I had to guess. But a good thought!

I realy think this can be done... I hope to keep the interest going here. I'll do whatever I can!
~Scott

 

[turbodig]

Re: Distributerless Ignition possiblity.. (working on it)

Dig...... I'm cofident in the holes going around the stock ballancer. I think they'll work good. You'll need 1/4 20 bolts/nuts. Nothing more.*no tapping* 4 bolts/nuts/washers should be fine. If you've got the spec's for the wheel then heck we are almost there!

I'd have to go take a magnet to our stock ballancer. I think it's cast. Plus cutting out gaps of metal in it wouldn't be a good Idea for ballance if I had to guess. But a good thought!

I realy think this can be done... I hope to keep the interest going here. I'll do whatever I can!
~Scott

It is cast. See? [Holds up to screen]

Take the "sm" off for the really big version.

Anyway, I can see what you mean about the holes. The problem is that they're on the wrong side of the rubber. If the ring slips (that never happens... riiiight), it's fubar.

The only real alternative with this thing is to notch the balancer itself. This was my original plan, but it's not something you'd want to manufacture. Furthermore, it doesn't
give you much ring to work with on the inside (that's the part connected to the crank)
I think it would work, though.

 

[WyoSyclone]

Re: Distributerless Ignition possiblity.. (working on it)

It is cast. See? [Holds up to screen]

Take the "sm" off for the really big version.

There are those 3 holes on the inner hub spokes...

 

[turbodig]

Re: Distributerless Ignition possiblity.. (working on it)

Can someone measure a stock crank pulley for depth?

Also, can somebody with an SBC balancer measure overall thickness, and distance from the seal snout to the main body of the balancer?

EDIT: One more thing. If somebody has a stock balancer on a motor that's out, measure the distance from the back of the balancer to the cover/front of seal. If we have a 1/2" or more in there, we might have another method. Not a lot of room for crank endplay, though.

Thanks,

 

[Syclone#892]

Re: Distributerless Ignition possiblity.. (working on it)

Just found this thread, very nice hopefully someone gets this going.
Only problem is I won't be able to use this as my bracket setup has no room anywhere for the crank sensor to mount

But anyway the newer 350's came with the plastic timing cover and can be bought at any parts store pretty cheap, I think that would fit and I remember looking at one of the engines and it did not seem like the crank was any longer because of the 3 tooth spacer. Its something I have thought of just never got around to but if that works it may be my only option other than getting it to work off the dist like protosy did.

Good luck and keep up the good work.