Fuel Management Ideas

[eficonnection]

Hi Guys. I have a personal interest in updating my SyTy engine with newer GM fuel management. Being a V8 guy, I'm still researching what GM has done with fuel management for 6 cylinder engines since the year 2000 ish.

History...Several years ago me and my guys (of EFI Connection, LLC) developed what we call our 24x LS1 PCM conversion for SBC/LT1 engines to bring coil per cylinder ignition, electronic transmission control, and modern tuning with software like EFILive or HP Tuners. More at http://www.eficonnection.com/eficonnection/24x.aspx.

Anyway, I'm rebuilding a SyTy engine and plan to use a newer GM PCM/ECM for fuel management (and maybe transmission control). The ideal is coil per cylinder ignition (6 coils), but so far all I'm coming up with is GM PCM/ECM support for wasted spark (3 coils). I do see an opportunity for 6 coils, but it will require electronic throttle, which we have covered for the SyTy intake manifold with one our TPI/LT1 throttle bodies...

Please get me up to speed...

• What are the current fuel management and ignition system upgrades?
• What is lacking with the current fuel management and ignition systems?
• 4L80E control would be inexpensive (and simplified) through a GM ECU. What aftermarket controllers are being used for current 4L80E swaps?
• Has anyone been discussing 6L80E and 6L90E swaps?

I'm also considering buying a Syclone or Typhoon to do a complete conversion, including building a brand new plug and play wire harness assembly for the application. My full time job is building brand new fuel injection harnesses for LS type engines, so I have available all of the harness components necessary, with production tooling, to build such a harness.

 

[eficonnection]

Re: Fuel Management Ideas

The plan is to pull from the shelf the crank and cam signal components for our 24x or 58x small-block Chevy systems. I want a crank signal solution from within the timing cover. TPIS is manufacturing a billet timing cover for SBC engines to go along with our 24x and 58x SBC conversions. It's a perfect fit for the early 4.3L engine. Notice the crank sensor hole at the bottom of the timing cover.

The 1x or 4x cam signal will come from within the distributor.

 

[alwayscode390]

Re: Fuel Management Ideas

Sweet, a coilpack ignition for the SYTY huh? Best of luck ---

 

[eficonnection]

Re: Fuel Management Ideas

alwayscode390...we have a pretty cool 502 Ram Jet project going on (saw your signature). We're setting up a 2008 Corvette based system for a 55 Chevy with 502 Ram Jet, electronic throttle, coil per cylinder ignition, cruise control, 6L90E transmission, and tap up/down control. More at http://www.facebook.com/eficonnection

 

[DanenGraham]

Re: Fuel Management Ideas

Very cool stuff.

Some people should be able to help you out on here. Cant wait to see what this brings.

Lost of people stick with the stock distributor, coil, and ecm, and use Code59 to tune it. Its a proven setup that works very well. After market distributors and coils have been know to upset things, as well as adding ignition boxes.

I know some people have used the TCI controller for the 4L80e.

Im not much help, but some people on here know what you are seeking for sure.

 

[LIL QIK]

Re: Fuel Management Ideas

This would be awesome if you could get this working. Just think it would be a lot easier and cost effective than the expense of stand alones that are out there. Not to mention the ease of going to the local speed shop and getting someone to tune via HPT. Hopefully you make good progress in this....

 

[dgoodhue]

Re: Fuel Management Ideas

We current have code $59 for the DIY.

Working individual coil packs would be a huge additional as many of us use small gaps to overcome the stock distributor inadequacies. Integrated 4l80e control would be a huge plus. For the owner who aren't into DIY tuning having the ability to bring there trucks to dyno might be a very attraction option.

 

[Throws]

Re: Fuel Management Ideas

This would be awesome if you could get this working. Just think it would be a lot easier and cost effective than the expense of stand alones that are out there. Not to mention the ease of going to the local speed shop and getting someone to tune via HPT. Hopefully you make good progress in this....

THIS! You know how hard it is to find anybody who knows anything about tuning for our trucks? Aside from the well-staffed code59 community, nobody. I have a guy near me who can tune every drop of power out of an LS-based system, but my system to him is like learning latin.

-P

 

[turbocwd]

Re: Fuel Management Ideas

So far a 0411 swap has been done to leadfoot s-10/syclone motor build he tried to put the obd1 system in his truck at one point then switched back to 0411. I believe Poconojoe has experience with this conversion he has sent me some helpful info. 2002 S-10 has the 0411 computer.You need a gm 4.3 3x crank reluctor $14 from gm . Have .062 machined from the balancer and a 96 and later timing cover from a 305/350. You haft to go single roller timing set from gm performance for clearance. A Dist from 2002 along with coil and o2 's. you have the ability run hp tunes or efi live and the trans controls for the 60e/80e. I know its not coil on plug but it does accomplish what you are looking for in engine controls and keeps the expense down no need for drive by wire. The 6l80e/90e I believe the biggest sticking point is the transfer case adapter and input shaft.Hard enough to get them for the 4l80e install. I am very interested in this setup keep up the great ideas. I am currently going through a 2002 harness to make it stand alone so far its my biggest hurdle with going 0411 in my typhoon. If you make one I'll buy it. pm me if you want any more specifics on the setup.

 

[TYTILIDIE]

Re: Fuel Management Ideas

Correct me If I'm wrong but I am pretty sure a few guys have done this with the edist and some other crap. From what I have read, and there are some LONG threads on it, it isn't that easy.

 

[dgoodhue]

Re: Fuel Management Ideas

eDist is discontinued and has been for a while. Their is only handfull of owners running ls1 coil on the stock ECM.

 

[eficonnection]

Re: Fuel Management Ideas

I built this harness several years ago for a customer who wanted to use the 12200411 "LS1" PCM with 2002 4.3L S10 calibration. The harness had provision for 4L60E, but I think with a transmission segment swap (and some harness changes), you can use a 4L80E. I currently have too much on my plate to build another harness for this application.

Single coil and distributor is not attractive to me. I've had too much time into coil per cylinder ignition and don't want to go back. Wasted spark would be a compromise.

The electronic throttle body would be more of a novelty to me, but a requirement if I choose to use any Gen IV GM ECM (because they do not have provision for cable throttle...specifically an idle air control motor).

 

[sy605]

Re: Fuel Management Ideas

411 ecm is awesome. I use one in my LS GN. HP tuners is so easy(what I use). I would love to see coil on plug using proven factory components. :tup:

 

[Poconojoe]

Re: Fuel Management Ideas

I do realize you need to run the higher resolution crank reluctor and switch the variable in the option matrix to convert to coil near plug, but has anyone ever determined if it needs to 18 pulses per revolution for the 6 cylinder or can it be 24 pulses like the v8's are?
I had disscussed this with you several years ago and decided until somebody striaghten this out I'd stick with the low res ingnion use a distributer with a cap and wires
I don't see the need to convert to drive by wire, since the 6243 (2004 GTO) PCMs support drive by cable and use the faster processor and contain 1 meg of memory

 

[eficonnection]

Re: Fuel Management Ideas

The 6l80e/90e I believe the biggest sticking point is the transfer case adapter and input shaft.

While I haven't looked into this yet, I've been thinking about trying a 6L80E install with its appropriate transfer case and a new front driveshaft (for my AWD S10). One concern I have is the crossmemeber clearance for the transfer case. As it is, my V8 sits about 1-1/4" rearward for front clearance.

 

[canadian]

Re: Fuel Management Ideas

Please get me up to speed...

• What are the current fuel management and ignition system upgrades?
• What is lacking with the current fuel management and ignition systems?

http://vvnet.fi/ville/ion/DIY-Ion-Sensing-2.pdf


Add that.

 

[0966Sy]

Re: Fuel Management Ideas

Whats the cost of parts just to convert to electronic throttle control on a stock TB truck?

 

[turbocwd]

Re: Fuel Management Ideas

While I haven't looked into this yet, I've been thinking about trying a 6L80E install with its appropriate transfer case and a new front driveshaft (for my AWD S10). One concern I have is the crossmemeber clearance for the transfer case. As it is, my V8 sits about 1-1/4" rearward for front clearance.

Sorry! Thought we were talking about a v6 with a borg warner transfer case. A v8 with a 6l80e not so much a problem if you have the transfer case that fits it. 6l80e is one big trans its already tight under there it might not fit very well. Good luck with your build

 

[leadfoot]

Re: Fuel Management Ideas

While I haven't looked into this yet, I've been thinking about trying a 6L80E install with its appropriate transfer case and a new front driveshaft (for my AWD S10). One concern I have is the crossmemeber clearance for the transfer case. As it is, my V8 sits about 1-1/4" rearward for front clearance.

If you have an AWD cross member, you should be able to move it down and re-drill holes in the frame for mounting.

Also, is the 6L80e the same overall length as a 4L60e? :squint:

What bolt pattern is on the 6L80e tail piece? You may have issues trying to clock the transfer case so that the front prop shaft is level.

 

[eficonnection]

Re: Fuel Management Ideas

Whats the cost of parts just to convert to electronic throttle control on a stock TB truck?

Electronic throttle is not a stand alone sort of installation. It requires a Throttle Actuator Control (TAC) module and PCM (with calibration) that supports the TAC.

As time permits, we're going to run a 58x crank solution on a 4.3L. That will require electronic throttle. Here's a ballpark idea of prices...

• $1,100.00 for 52mm or 58mm electronic TPI/LT1/SyTy throttle body
• $100.00 for electronic pedal assembly
• $250.00 for ECM (E37)
• $75.00 for Ignition Coil Assembly (2008 4.3L Wasted Spark)
• $600.00 for 58x crank and 4x cam signal solution
• $310.00 for timing cover
• $750.00 for stand alone wire harness

So that's an estimated $3,185.00. Add to that custom length spark plug wires, a stand alone method of controlling the 700R4, tuning, etc, etc.

I'd ballpark it at $4,000.