Grand Nationals vs the SyTy's....why is the value so different?

[SloGN]

Re: Grand Nationals vs the SyTy's....why is the value so different?

anyone here know why they call GN engines "109 blocks" instead of their LC2 RPO code?

The reason most people call them the 109 engine is due to the 86-87 engine the last three digits of the eingine casting #. the older 84-85 hot-air non I/C engine had a diffrent casting number as did the 78-83 carbed turbo engines.


the lc2 engine is buicks turbo rpo from 78-87.

 

[SloGN]

Re: Grand Nationals vs the SyTy's....why is the value so different?

well it's like this when you ask anybody about a grand national they will tell you about the 87 gn, not the 82 84-86 gns just the 87. they produced more gn's in 87 due to this. they extended the 87 build yr till december to send out more gn's


because of this the 87 gn is more desirable than a 86 GN and the only thing diffrent was the grill .

here is some info http://gnttype.org/general/v6hist.html


The production numbers, horsepower ratings and torque figures for the Turbo Regals and Grand Nationals from 1978 to 1987 are given below. This information is taken directly from the Facts and Figures Book, an excellent source of technical information for the Turbo Regals.

1987


GNX
547 Produced
276 HP @ 4400 RPM
360 ft-lbs of torque at 3000 RPM
Grand National (WE2)
20,193 Produced
245 HP @ 4400 RPM
355 ft-lbs of torque at 2000 RPM
Turbo T (WE4)
1,547 Produced
245 HP @ 4400 RPM
355 ft-lbs of torque at 2000 RPM
Regal Limited w/ Turbo
1,035 Produced
245 HP @ 4400 RPM
355 ft-lbs of torque at 2000 RPM
Base Regal w/ Turbo
4,268 Produced
245 HP @ 4400 RPM
355 ft-lbs of torque at 2000 RPM
Total Turbo Cars = 27,590



1986


Grand National
5,512 Produced
235 HP @ 4000 RPM
330 ft-lbs of torque at 2400 RPM
T-Type
1,921 Produced
235 HP @ 4000 RPM
330 ft-lbs of torque at 2400 RPM
WH1

463 Produced
235 HP @ 4000 RPM
330 ft-lbs of torque at 2400 RPM
LeSabre Grand National
112 Produced
140 HP @ 3600 RPM (Non-turbo 3.8L FWD)
240 ft-lbs of torque at 1600 RPM
Total Turbo Cars = 7,896


1985


Grand National
2,102 Produced
200 HP @ 4400 RPM
300 ft-lbs of torque at 2400 RPM
T-Type
1,575 Produced
200 HP @ 4400 RPM
300 ft-lbs of torque at 2400 RPM
WH1

525 Produced
200 HP @ 4400 RPM
300 ft-lbs of torque at 2400 RPM
Total Turbo Cars = 4,204


1984


Grand National
2,000 Produced
200 HP @ 4400 RPM
300 ft-lbs of torque at 2400 RPM
T-Type
2,238 Produced
200 HP @ 4400 RPM
300 ft-lbs of torque at 2400 RPM
WH1

1,163 Produced
200 HP @ 4400 RPM
300 ft-lbs of torque at 2400 RPM
Total Turbo Cars = 5,204


1983


T-Type
3,732 Produced
190 HP @ 1600 RPM
280 ft-lbs of torque at 2400 RPM
Total Turbo Cars = 3,732


1982


Grand National
215 Produced (Just 16 of which were believed to be turbocharged. i.e. Same engine as Sport Coupe.)
125 HP @ 4000 RPM
205 ft-lbs of torque at 2000 RPM
Sport Coupe
2,022 Produced
175 HP @ 4000 RPM
275 ft-lbs of torque at 2600 RPM
Total Turbo Cars = 2,022


1981


Sport Coupe
2,891 Produced
170 HP @ 4000 RPM
265 ft-lbs of torque at 2400 RPM
Total Turbo Cars = 2,891


1980


Sport Coupe
6,276 Produced
175 HP @ 4000 RPM
265 ft-lbs of torque at 2400 RPM
Total Turbo Cars = 6,276


1979


Sport Coupe
21,389 Produced
170 HP @ 4000 RPM
245 ft-lbs of torque at 2400 RPM
Total Turbo Cars = 21,389


1978


Sport Coupe (2BBL)
2,697 Produced
150 HP @ 3800 RPM
245 ft-lbs of torque at 2400 RPM
Sport Coupe (4BBL)
27,811 Produced
165 HP @ 4000 RPM
265 ft-lbs of torque at 2800 RPM
Total Turbo Cars = 30,507


TOTALS


Total Regal Grand Nationals produced from 1982 to 1987 was 30,022.
Total Turbo Ts produced: 1,547 in 1987 only.
Total Regal T Types produced was 22,806.
Total Turbocharged Regal Sport Coupes produced from 1978 to 1979 was 59,896.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


RAREST


Rarest Grand National: The 1982 with only 215 produced.
Rarest Turbocharged Grand National: The 1984 with 2000 produced.
Rarest Turbocharged Regal (non GNX): The 1987 Regal Limited with only 1,035 produced.
Second Rarest Turbocharged Regal: The 1987 Turbo-T with only 1,547 produced.
Rarest Regal Sport Coupe: The 1982 with only 2,022 produced.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


QUICKEST


Quickest stock Turbocharged Regal: The 1987 GNX.
Quickest stock Turbocharged non-GNX Regal: The 1987 Turbo-T.
Quickest Grand National: The 1987 Model.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


BUICK REGALS IMPORTED INTO CANADA


Year Total Regals Option WE2 (Grand National)
---- ------------ ---------------------------
1984 3,955 100
1985 3,670 143
1986 4,138 441
1987 3,578 1,695
1987 - 2,664 Regals excluding Limiteds **
1987 - 280 Y56 'T' package ***

** using the 3,578 figure, it can be concluded that 914 were Limiteds
*** GM Canada indicates that this figure is for models 4GJ47 only, therefore
not including Regal Limiteds.

Please note that all figures shown, except for WE2 obviously, include turbo and non-turbo cars.
Most of this information is taken directly from the "Facts and Figures Book". This book is an excellent source of technical (and interesting) information on the Turbo Buicks!

 

[turbodig]

Re: Grand Nationals vs the SyTy's....why is the value so different?

The Buick is a boat. Try to run autocross in one. Every time I get in mine I think it rides like a Caddy in comparison to the Sy or Ty. Car floats at high speeds. Damn fast in a straight line. Awesome burnouts (right Adam?). They built almost 110,000 turbo 3.8's if you count the carb'ed cars, TTA's, Rivieras and LeSabres. Much more development work, more cars out there, more aftermarket sources because there was more potential money in it. No recognition on the streets for any of them except among the really knowledgeable. The Sy and Ty are unknowns. My Buick has the full on grandpa treatment, vinyl roof, all the chrome, hood ornament, factory non metallic slate grey paint. Sneaky fast.

I have the same perception... having been 130+ in both, the Sy is *much* more confidence inspiring at speed.
It gives you something of a "bulletproof" feeling.

The GN feels squishy.

 

[turbodig]

Re: Grand Nationals vs the SyTy's....why is the value so different?

why is that? why does a GN take out a gasket when is pings but a SyTy will take out a piston???????

plus for the whole stock blocks doing 10s are we talking full on unopened blocks or forged to the teeth???

Untouched stock. Granted, you'd have to have a low-miles, *healthy* stock motor, and there aren't many of those around any more. Not like you can't rebuild it to stock specs, though.

I don't think most people have the resources and dedication to do it, though. It would likely be more expensive than building a motor, going the usual route.

It'd be fun to try, though.

 

[SloGN]

Re: Grand Nationals vs the SyTy's....why is the value so different?

Dig


There are several buicks in the 10's on stock untouched engines that have way more than low miles on them!



with a stock buick engine you gotta run insane boost make them run!.


i had a friend of mine had a 100k t-type bolt on a te-45a turbo front mount i/c big injectors and c116 @ 30 + psi of boost run in the high 6's @100mph in the low 90's heat.

 

[turbodig]

Re: Grand Nationals vs the SyTy's....why is the value so different?

Dig


There are several buicks in the 10's on stock untouched engines that have way more than low miles on them!


.

I know. That wasn't what he asked. My comment above was referring to SyTy specifically.

 

[dgoodhue]

Re: Grand Nationals vs the SyTy's....why is the value so different?

well it's like this when you ask anybody about a grand national they will tell you about the 87 gn, not the 82 84-86 gns just the 87. they produced more gn's in 87 due to this. they extended the 87 build yr till december to send out more gn's


because of this the 87 gn is more desirable than a 86 GN and the only thing diffrent was the grill .

here is some info http://gnttype.org/general/v6hist.html

1987

GNX
547 Produced
276 HP @ 4400 RPM
360 ft-lbs of torque at 3000 RPM

Grand National (WE2)
20,193 Produced
245 HP @ 4400 RPM
355 ft-lbs of torque at 2000 RPM

Turbo T (WE4)
1,547 Produced
245 HP @ 4400 RPM
355 ft-lbs of torque at 2000 RPM

Regal Limited w/ Turbo
1,035 Produced
245 HP @ 4400 RPM
355 ft-lbs of torque at 2000 RPM

Base Regal w/ Turbo
4,268 Produced
245 HP @ 4400 RPM
355 ft-lbs of torque at 2000 RPM
Total Turbo Cars = 27,590



1986


Grand National
5,512 Produced
235 HP @ 4000 RPM
330 ft-lbs of torque at 2400 RPM

T-Type
1,921 Produced
235 HP @ 4000 RPM
330 ft-lbs of torque at 2400 RPM

WH1
463 Produced
235 HP @ 4000 RPM
330 ft-lbs of torque at 2400 RPM
Total Turbo Cars = 7,896

This is a little bit of tangent off the original topic. The 87 GN is great example of how car collecting isn't always about rarest car. Excluding the GNX, the 87 GN has the highest value, but it has by far the highest production number by quite a bit.

It isn't even the fastest model either. An equally optioned Turbo T is lighter and therefore faster on paper due it aluminum wheels (steel wheel on the GN) and aluminum bumper supports. The Turbo Regals, Turbo Limited, & 86 T-tpyes can make the same claim because of aluminum wheels vs the GN Chrome plated steel wheels.

86 GN basically had a Chrome outline on the front grill and lower hp rating on paper (reality is they are both have the same output) They made 3 x as many 87's.

If I had to guess their are more nicer 87 GN than any of other models. I know of a lot of GN owners that bought turbo regals as daily drivers and kept their GN as summer only garage queens.

87 GN are well known and get all the attention. The GN got all the magazine press. Almost any gearhead knows what a GN is. Amazingly enough, not every gear head know that they put that motor into other Regal models (or the Trans Am). The demand is for the well known model.

 

[EXAF1E]

Re: Grand Nationals vs the SyTy's....why is the value so different?

This is a little bit of tangent off the original topic. The 87 GN is great example of how car collecting isn't always about rarest car. Excluding the GNX, the 87 GN has the highest value, but it has by far the highest production number by quite a bit.

It isn't even the fastest model either. An equally optioned Turbo T is lighter and therefore faster on paper due it aluminum wheels (steel wheel on the GN) and aluminum bumper supports. The Turbo Regals, Turbo Limited, & 86 T-tpyes can make the same claim because of aluminum wheels vs the GN Chrome plated steel wheels.

86 GN basically had a Chrome outline on the front grill and lower hp rating on paper (reality is they are both have the same output) They made 3 x as many 87's.

If I had to guess their are more nicer 87 GN than any of other models. I know of a lot of GN owners that bought turbo regals as daily drivers and kept their GN as summer only garage queens.

87 GN are well known and get all the attention. The GN got all the magazine press. Almost any gearhead knows what a GN is. Amazingly enough, not every gear head know that they put that motor into other Regal models (or the Trans Am). The demand is for the well known model.

This is just history repeating itself. Take the first generation Z/28 Camaro for instance.

1967- 602 built
1968- 7199 built
1969- 20302 built

The 69 constantly pulls the higher $$$. Why? Product recognition. You flood the market with numbers and more people are exposed and remember it. When people were too young or didn't have the funds to purchase these cars they would make a promise to themselves "One day I will have one!" That DAY started about 8 years ago for alot of people. Just take a look how those cars have rocketed in price. If you could find one with the orignial (left the factory with) drive train you would be adding additional 15-25K to the price. Same thing now the the GN.

 

[thunderace31]

Re: Grand Nationals vs the SyTy's....why is the value so different?

Funny stuff here I had a T-Type with a more or less bone stock 3.8 just a larger cam front mount IC Big inj. and a TE45a turbo :lol: Car went 11.04 over and over and over at 28 PSI I then turned it up further and went to 32psi and went 10.43 124 mph over and over and over The car made mad cash on the street ! Hooked hard always went straight!

I loved it! So I got an 87 GN without an engine and built a stage II motor for it Its running on Fast and has gone a best of 9.09 151 mph Is it street able NOPE! Was the T-type with the stock ECM and a Chip YUP! 100% Got 22 mpg and I would have more or less drove it any place! Now If I can get the Ty I just got to do the same Ill be happy

Why did I buy a TY Instead of another T-type or GN?? Because the Ty like many others have said is 1 cheaper to purchase at this time and 2 not as known on the streets a big plus if your a street racer like me I know I know its bad and all that but its damn fun and puts a little extra $ in ones pocket The best part about the Ty will be going out and not having to do a huge smokey burn out and wasting my tires to make that cash! Plus the look on peoples faces PRICELESS! :tup:

Sorry if Im off topic at all I just couldnt help but chime in I honestly think that the reason the GN and TUrbo Buicks are selling for so much is everyone knows them and knows that they can go really fast for not a ton of money. Hell I had about $15000 in my t-type and I went 10's on a bone stock block! Your just not going to do that with any thing else. Plus how many ardicals have been written about them in all the mag's ?? TONS

 

[GAShan]

Re: Grand Nationals vs the SyTy's....why is the value so different?

'82 Regal Turbo Sport Coupe, factory aluminum package and dual exhausts, converted 1989 to '87 GN drivetrain and interior, '84 GN posi and springs, 140 cluster, '87 Monte SS swaybars, one year only Slate Grey