manual trans conversion

[novaderrik]

hey, all. I'm throwing together an 88 S10 4X4 with a TBI 350. the future calls for an AWD conversion as soon as my Mom gets tired of her AWD Astro. the truck currently has the stock 700r4 that came behind the 4.3, but in my opinion, any real performance vehicle HAS to have a stick shift. has anyone put a T56 out of a newer Camaro or Trans Am into their Syclone or Typhoon? in my humble opinion, a 6 speed/AWD little truck would be absolutely killer. I do realize there would be some work involved, but I've already made my own engine mounts and welded the 4.3 oil pan sump onto the 350 oil pan, so a little work isn't a problem. but an adapter to hook the 6 speed to the transfer case would be necessary. i know the output shaft slines are the same on the T56 as a 700r4, so in theory, it shouldn't be TOO hard to do..
any input is greatly appreciated.

 

[truckins10]

Bud,
Just do I search because this has been covered many times over and over, youll find a ton of info. Fern

 

[midnightbluS10]

T56/AWD is not possible unless you're willing to spend the bucks to get a custom adapter made to mate the T56 to the transfer case. The AWD in the Astro won't work either. Something about spline counts being different, IIRC.

 

[novaderrik]

what splines would be different? the Astro uses the same transfer case ans a Syclone- actually, the Syclone uses the Astro transfer case (AWD Astro came first and made the Syclone/Typhoon possible- much like the 9C1 Caprice made the 94 Impala SS a reality), but that's just getting anal on my part, i guess. the T56 has the same output shaft spline count as a 4L60/700r4 does, so that's not the problem.
me thinks it's jsut a matter of no one ever doing anything like this before.
yesterday, i had a revelation- what about a 97 and newer Corvette T56- it's mounted out back directly to the transaxle. even IF the transaxle uses the same bolt pattern as an Astro transfer cae, what about the input shaft? swap in Camaro input pieces and shifter into the Vette tranny, perhaps? this could get really spendy really fast, but dreaming is free...
man, i need to win the lottery...

 

[Crazy J]

it's not a difference in inputs, it's the outputs.
that happened around '92, not sure what they changed but the slip yoke is different. so it's just a matter of making sure to get the right yoke.

and the reason nobody has done AWD with the t-56 is cost, there are people besides you that are hell bent on it, money just keeps them from actually doing it.

 

[GM TURBO]

I'd stay RWD and invest the extra money in a suspension that hooks. AWD is good and all - but it is also has its complications.

T56 - Ford 9" - done.

X-Fer cases break.
Propshafts break.
Front diff = extra weight.

 

[novaderrik]

i already have a RWD toy- 71 Nova with a 400 horse 355 and a T-10 tranny.
but i just can't get the thougth of a 6 speed and AWD traction- rain, sleet, snow, whatever. it will happen, somehow, just that the powerball folks need to pick the right dam numbers for a change. and when i do it, i will sell it as a kit. an auto can be alright, i guess, but a stick is just the way all performance machines should have been built. yeah, parts break, but that's what junkyards are for.

 

[dgoodhue]

and when i do it, i will sell it as a kit. an auto can be alright, i guess, but a stick is just the way all performance machines should have been built. yeah, parts break, but that's what junkyards are for.

I am a big fan of standards, but with a Turbo an Auto is the way to go. SyTy owners are not going to spend $3k, $5k, etc to make our truck a half second slower, an boosted AWD luanch is what make our truck so fun to drive.

 

[novaderrik]

i wouldn't market such a kit towards "real" Syclone/Typhoon owners, but rahter to the people out there with one of the millions of 4X4 S-trucks out there who want to make their own version of an AWD street/track terror with a manual trans. i know there isn't that much of a market for this stuff- but if i had the $$$ to prototype and manufacture this stuff, i don't think profit would be that much of a motivator for me, as i'd be set financially anyways.
hmm, i should start gathering up all the AWD stuff from Astros , rebuild the transfer cases, and sell an AWD "conversion kit" for 4X4 S trucks with auto trannies.. hmm... might be relatively simple money...

 

[DanenGraham]

Yeah, wouldnt you cook the clutch if you tried to launch really hard, And you would NOT be able to build the boost up, up, and away

Just put a manual valve body in and a underdrive on a T400, six speed manual (kind of)

 

[novaderrik]

i suppose the manual valve body would be a good way to "cheat", but 3/4 the fun of driving a manual teanny is getting the left foot, right foot, and right hand all working in harmony to pull off the "killer shift". it's way much more funner than clicking a shifter ahead one notch.
there are lots of hi-po AWD/stick shift cars out there- most of them are imports, tho. there are the DSM terrors (made in the USA) that are AWD and have turbo 6 cylinders in them- and a few of them are deep into the 8 second zone in the quarter. i guess y'all just have been spoiled because GMC only offered a slushbox in what was an otherwise an awe inspiring little truck for the time period. bummer- they just woulda been better with a stick...

 

[dgoodhue]

i suppose the manual valve body would be a good way to "cheat", but 3/4 the fun of driving a manual teanny is getting the left foot, right foot, and right hand all working in harmony to pull off the "killer shift". it's way much more funner than clicking a shifter ahead one notch.

I definately agree with that, manual valve body is not an auto. A well done powershift can be very rewarding and surprisingly smotth if done right (ofcourse missing and grinding gear is a horrible sound)

i guess y'all just have been spoiled because GMC only offered a slushbox in what was an otherwise an awe inspiring little truck for the time period. bummer- they just woulda been better with a stick...

I disagree. Where do you live? Have ever been in SyTy or another turbo car where you build boost off the line?

I would have a hard time, making the 1-2 shift in syty anyways. By the time I make my correction from the launch my truck is doing the 1-2 shift. My truck goes through 1st in 1.1sec (yes that is measured on laptop and my truck is mostly stock) or another way to put it, laydown a telephone and my truck would be in 2nd gear by the end of it.

In most standard turbo car you have to dump the clutch at high RPM to get the vehicle going while waiting for boost to build (note you not can build any booost by reving an engine in neutral) To make a DSM's run fast off the line, you need to dump the clutch 6000rpm, no thanks I will stick to my 2200 rpm brake torque. High rpm clutch dump are violent and DSM's go through drivetrain parts like crazy when raced. SyTY have a lot more torque and I am sure they would break even more part with a standard.

 

[Tydriver]

In most standard turbo car you have to dump the clutch at high RPM to get the vehicle going while waiting for boost to build (note you not can build any booost by reving an engine in neutral) To make a DSM's run fast off the line, you need to dump the clutch 6000rpm, no thanks I will stick to my 2200 rpm brake torque. High rpm clutch dump are violent and DSM's go through drivetrain parts like crazy when raced. SyTY have a lot more torque and I am sure they would break even more part with a standard.

Incorrect, a simple stutter box is all it takes to build boost on a Manual equipped transmission vehicle. I have seen it first hand. I have a friend that has a TT 300z can get approximately 4-5# of boost (and thats only a 3.0L engine) with a aftermarket racetronix (sp ?) traction control module. The box does two things, it allows him to launch without wheelhop, or hazing the tires, and it also allows him to leave WITH BOOST.

This could be done with a simple MSD REV-LIMITER BOX with a 2 step control. Its not that hard, the racetronix setup my bud has is mainly for traction control, but has the additional feature which adds to its functionality.


novaderrik

Good luck trying to find a transmission that is going to offer the best of both worlds. I did a little research on the subject you are questioning. I am anticipating a Turbo LS1 swap into my truck (have most pieces, just need time and direction), and I seriously contemplated this very dilemma.

AWD causes the hang up, the Fbody and Vette (T-56)trans are OUT, (no provisions for a transfer case).

The viper trans is the same thing, no dice there.

The only potential candidate that comes to mind at the moment (atleast selecting from a MASS PRODUCED TRANSMISSION). Would be the possibility of a New Venture NV4500. However, since it is mainly directed at the truck sector, I wonder how well it likes to be POWER SHIFTED, and exactly what the gate dimensions are (overall distance between gears).

There are other transmissions that would bolt up if you wanted to lose the AWD, but what fun is that ? There are also many other tranny's to pics from, but coupling AWD and a big HP motor make me concerned about their longevity. The NV4500 is a 5 speed trans, and it has been built to handle some power, not sure however, if it would withstand the rigors of AWD and power shifting. If you come up with a lead that looks promising, be sure to let me know. At this point, I am 95% sure I will go 4L80e.

There are also the transmissions designed to handle the TurboDiesels of today, but I think both the overall cost and the fact that they probably shift like a TRUCK transmission, certainly outweighs any GOOD points that could be redeemed.

 

[dgoodhue]

Incorrect, a simple stutter box is all it takes to build boost on a Manual equipped transmission vehicle. I have seen it first hand. I have a friend that has a TT 300z can get approximately 4-5# of boost (and thats only a 3.0L engine) with a aftermarket racetronix (sp ?) traction control module. The box does two things, it allows him to launch without wheelhop, or hazing the tires, and it also allows him to leave WITH BOOST.

I did say most I am well aware of using a rev limiter to build boost (I actually started writing about a 2 step rev limiter in my post, but I deleted it because I went off track to much) The 2 step rev limiters that I have heard at the track are pretty noisy, not exactly something I want to do at a stop light. I sware some of DSM guy use the factory rev limiter to build boost at the track (but I am just going by engine sound)

BTW Does it take long to build boost with a 'stutter box' and does your friend use it in conjunction with a boost controller. It seems like with just a rev limiter it would hard to leave a specific boost level if it wasn't tied to a 2 step boost controller.

 

[Tydriver]

He has an old school APEXi AVC-r but other than that its all stock as far as turbo management is concerned. The APEXi is just used to riase the boost level of the turbo, above stock ratings. Apparently the Nissan's computer isnt setup like a SYTY, it has NO control over boost (ok, neither does the SYTY one :wink: , but atleast the thought was there :lol: ).

When I witnessed it first hand it was as simple as pushing the clutch in, and flooring the throttle. I hate to say it, but I was envious, an instant 4-5# of boost. Granted the TT's are alot smaller, but so is the displacement of the motor. I would find it very hard to get used to the setup myself, something about just dropping the clutch when the motor is so wound up and making all that HP. But his traction control module was awesome, truly a piece of art.

Anyhow, as I mentioned, I would prefer the auto anyday to a stick for overall track times, but still sumthin about having a stick would be kinda appealing.

 

[cr133r]

Has anybody considered a divorced transfer case setup? I'm not sure if there is room in a Sy, but it may be possible in a Typhoon.

 

[Tydriver]

Has anybody considered a divorced transfer case setup? I'm not sure if there is room in a Sy, but it may be possible in a Typhoon.

Wouldnt this be better applied to the SYCLONE ? Since it has a longer wheelbase ???

Interesting tho, never crossed my mind.

 

[Pittman]

Hum ????

IN the buick we run a Lenco off a neil chance converter. So, is this a automatic or a standard I shall always wonder


Anyone wantint a "true performance" standard must be a younger guy. You get into mid 30 crowd with a family you need an auto. TOO much other shit to do besides shifting. :lol:

 

[cr133r]

Wouldnt this be better applied to the SYCLONE ? Since it has a longer wheelbase ???

Actually, I don't think it would work in a Syclone. The gastank would be in the way whereas the Ty's is in the back. I would think the rear driveshaft would be of sufficient length on a Ty with the divorced setup, but I'm not 100% sure.

 

[rockvillespeed]

i'd GLADLY relocate the tank on a sy to do this swap.
i already have an aftermarket version t56, and pedals and a fabbed hydraulic setup in my v8 s10 i'd steal outta there in a freakin heartbeat for the syclone.

msd has a new box, for everyone's info, meant specifically to control boost off the line on turbo drag cars.

build the adapters, they will come....