Methanol corrosion

Quickstop [UK]

Combating adversyty.
We made up some hard lines for my upper IC and the alky setup but I just read some details about how corrosive alky is when the alky is just sitting in the pipes.

Just how bad is it? Should I just revert to Julio's lines? I feel like I should - I plan to run straight methanol.

Out of curiosity, does anyone run 50/50?
 

BMFB

Not to scale
Re: Methanol corrosion

I know methanol is particullarly corrosive to plastics, rubbers, and polymers, as well as aluminum, so hopefully you didn;t make your lines out of any of that. I have no idea what Julians lines are made of, but they can withstand it according to him.
 
Re: Methanol corrosion

never noticed any sort of corrosion with Dons kit. I had a pump issue once. The valve would not close to hold line pressure. The stand up guy Don is, he repaired it for free. I also have aluminum intercooler pipes. Never found any corrosion from the alky on them.
Alky injection parts are not something I would cheap out on. Its very flammable and burns clear. Its the life blood to your engine. Over engineer the hell out of it. Install fail safes when possible.
 

ziembic

Donating Member
Re: Methanol corrosion

To add to this topic, I have found a company that makes a sender that they certify for use in 100% methanol applications. I am installing a 5 gallon cell in my suby. and would like to know the level on a gauge.This company is called Isspro and their website is www.isspro.com. It is a custom application (not off the shelf) but they will build it to your specs, including length as well as the empty and full ohms. I couldn't believe it when he said it was 130. This is about the same price as the equivalent from the fuel cell companies for a tube style sender. The float senders with the arm are cheaper but can't be used with baffles.
I talked to Julio a while back and he said that regular AN fittings whousl be swapped out for different ones, but I can't remember which type. I have read that as long as they are annodized they are ok, but have not seen that repeated. The aquamist kit that I just bought is rated up to 100% meth, and it is all plastic pieces, thin plastic line (like boost gauge line but slightly bigger. Plastic fittings. Was a little disappointed, but I guess it meth is harmful to a lot of things. Someone with the knowledge and experience should write a sticky.
 

Quickstop [UK]

Combating adversyty.
Re: Methanol corrosion

Aluminium hard lines from Summit I think.

Guess I'm not going to be using them for alky. I've been reading some crazy good stuff about water and running really lean.
 

Quickstop [UK]

Combating adversyty.
Re: Methanol corrosion

Water injection properly setup, slightly re-writes the rule book. Almost all internal combustion engines are knock limited for power. If you put a high enough octane fuel in them, and make the appropriate changes to take advantage of that octane you can substantially increase power output.

In typical street applications you only get small gains with WI because most people do not optimize the tune and engine build for the higher effective octane. In boosted applicatons you can use all that octane by bumping up the boost.

WI does several things many people are not aware of besides increase effective octane.

It reduces negative work performed on the compression stroke because the compression is more isothermal than adiabatic, ie the charge does not heat up as much under compression due to the high latent heat of evaporation of the water and alcohol injected. This returns some "free power" that other wise would have been wasted.

It lowers combustion temperatures and raises the effective octane of the fuel air charge. This gives two confilicting results, (1) -- your peak cylinder pressures drop a bit, but (2) the engine has less thermal load so it can now be pushed to levels of performance that would have melted valves or triggered runaway pre-ignition before.

It also has a little appreciated side benefit that following combustion there are more combustion products produced, this means cylinder pressure does not fall as quickly as the piston descends on the power stroke. Your effective power stroke is longer, so again another small incremental power increase.

It also slightly slows combustion time, so it moves the peak pressure time to later in the power stroke, depending on the engine this may be good for mechanical effeciency or require more ignition advance to get peak cylinder pressure to occur at the proper time.

The above is where most people end their tuning. If you use WI with a rich fuel mixture it will absolutely cost you power. To make power with WI you need to run fuel mixtures that would turn your pistons into molten slugs without the WI. Ignition timing, compression ratios and manifold pressures also need to be pushed into areas that most people would not even consider based on normal tuning experience.


For example when NACA was investigating WI for use in ADI systems (Anti- Detonation Injection) on WWII military piston engine aircraft here are some of the numbers they came up with.

Tests were run on a 6.65:1 compression ratio dual spark plug 4 valve engine.

The convention when these tests were run was to use water injection scaled to the fuel used. IE a 0.5:1 ADI rate ment you were injection .5 lb of water for each pound of fuel the engine was using. As a result water usage actually drops as you lean out the mixture. The also prefered to specify mixture in terms of fuel air ratio rather than the common air fuel ratio used in the automotive performance community.

Report E5E18
The following tests were run at a fuel air ratio of 0.08, inlet air pressure 50 in-hg absolute (about 10psi boost).
Peak imep psi
internal coolant water only
gasoline + 0 internal coolant/fuel ratio = 229 psi spark timing of 31.5 deg
gasoline +.2 internal coolant/fuel ratio = 241 at spark timing of 31.8 deg
gasoline +.4 internal coolant/fuel ratio = 250 at spark timing of 42.5 deg

Simply adding timing and increasing internal coolant rate was worth about 9% increase in imep. In effect you are creating a synthetic compression ratio by over advancing the spark.

Higher ratios were tried but did not return any additional power.

With a 50/50 mix of water and ethanol alcohol they got the following.

Gasoline + 0 internal coolant/fuel ratio = 229 psi at spark timing of 29.5
gasoline + .2 internal coolant/fuel ratio = 236 psi at 30 deg
gasoline + .4 internal coolant/fuel ratio = 233 psi at 31.5 deg
gasoline + .6 internal coolant/fuel ratio = 235 psi at 34 deg
gasoline + .8 internal coolant/fuel ratio = 237 psi at 37.6 deg

As you can see above the alcohol mix needs less timing to get to peak imep because of its faster burn speed, but in this case produces slightly less output.

Note that these tests were all run with the typical fuel air mixture you might see on any street engine, of 12.5:1 AFR, 0.08 Fuel air ratio.

Now lets look at what happens in a WI application if you lean the fuel air mixture out.
Data from NACA report 812

On gasoline only peak in imep was achieved at 2 different fuel air ratios.
lean max imep = 285 psi @ 0.05 FAR ( 20:1 AFR)
rich max imep = 290 psi @ 0.082 FAR ( 12.2:1 AFR)

with 100% water mix at coolant to fuel ratio of .5:1 we get:
lean max imep = 340 psi @ 0.06 FAR (16.66:1 FAR)
rich max imep = 360-365 psi @ 0.105 FAR ( 9.52:1 FAR)

on 70%/30% methanol water mix at coolant to fuel ratio of .5:1 we get:
lean max imep = 580 psi @ 0.044 FAR ( 22.7:1 FAR)
rich max imep = approx 460 psi from 0.075 - 0.09 FAR ( 13.3 - 11.11)

The engines running with internal coolants could run much higher manifold pressures to achieve these numbers. Knock limited manifold pressure for the 70/30 water alcohol mix went up to 150 in-hg (75psi), on pure water they got to the same manifold pressures at slightly leaner mixtures.

The maximium relative power ratio that they achieved in this test on 100% water internal coolant, was at a coolant to fuel ratio of 0.6:1 = 1.52, on 70/30 methanol water at a coolant to fuel injection ratio of 0.08:1 they got to 1.80 relative power ratio.

Most tuners would not even think of attempting these tuning numbers so this is, for the most part unexplored territitory outside the turbocharged imports, unlimited air racing, and tractor pull environments.
 

cat-vi

Ty Wannabe
Re: Methanol corrosion

Wow, you've made your homework! That was a lot of numbers to say at least. I was planning on 50/50 Methanol/Water, somebody running on Ethanol? Pros and cons. I know Methanol makes you blind and Ethanol makes you drunk, but besides that?
 

SY-1193

Active member
Re: Methanol corrosion

Mark,
I don't think they will corrode that quickly. Pure Meth (99.5 +/- is what you will find) is the way to go. It is most consistant and if you talk to Julio he will recommend this. Keep it in a sealed container on a block of wood.
If you are that worried about corrosion copy the lines into Stainless Steel line 1/4" (Mark has dual hard lines tee'd of of the supply line for the meth to two nozzles) . The aluminum AN fittings won't matter and can be reused because the meth only runs on the inside of the lines.
If you are worried about the aluminum lines...also consider this...your upper intake, lower intake and pistons are aluminum also. Gonna change those? I would run it and see how it goes...worst case you replace a couple hard lines. Use it as an excuse to run the truck more so it doesn't corrode in the lines!

P.S. run 50/50 Meth/Water ratio or lower to test the system for leaks before going with higher levels of meth due to flamability above that ratio.
 

Six-is-Enough

Use to do a little Boost
Re: Methanol corrosion

Mark,
I don't think they will corrode that quickly. Pure Meth (99.5 +/- is what you will find) is the way to go. It is most consistant and if you talk to Julio he will recommend this. Keep it in a sealed container on a block of wood.
If you are that worried about corrosion copy the lines into Stainless Steel line 1/4" (Mark has dual hard lines tee'd of of the supply line for the meth to two nozzles) . The aluminum AN fittings won't matter and can be reused because the meth only runs on the inside of the lines.
If you are worried about the aluminum lines...also consider this...your upper intake, lower intake and pistons are aluminum also. Gonna change those? I would run it and see how it goes...worst case you replace a couple hard lines. Use it as an excuse to run the truck more so it doesn't corrode in the lines!

P.S. run 50/50 Meth/Water ratio or lower to test the system for leaks before going with higher levels of meth due to flamability above that ratio.


:stupid: 100% Methanol is the way to go. I also doubt the alumniumlines will corrode.
 

BMFB

Not to scale
Re: Methanol corrosion

lean max imep = 580 psi @ 0.044 FAR ( 22.7:1 FAR)

Am I looking at that correctly, max performance was achieved at 22.7:1 AFR with a 70/30 mix? also, which was the 70, water, or meth?
 

Quickstop [UK]

Combating adversyty.
Re: Methanol corrosion

lean max imep = 580 psi @ 0.044 FAR ( 22.7:1 FAR)

Am I looking at that correctly, max performance was achieved at 22.7:1 AFR with a 70/30 mix? also, which was the 70, water, or meth?

That is what caught my attention.

I'm going to assume 70/30 methanol to water. It seems to warrant further investigations.

The reason I found this is because I was trying to work out how people tune with methanol. It seems people aim for a specific AFR but how do you know what the mix is?

Pure gasoline would be 14.7 and pure methanol is 6.5 apparently. How do people know to tune for 12.5? It just seems like a rough guess, a nice average.

In reading other forums, the O2 AFR reading seems irrelevant - there are two things you need to be concerned with: the detonation occurring and the EGT.

I'm happy to admit I don't have alky running on my truck, nor have I tuned with it - I just like learning about stuff.

A 20% power increase by going lean rather than a "safe" rich tune is intriguing, you have to admit!

Keith, re the lines, I am sure they'd be fine if they were sprayed with a vapour intermittently - that is what the pistons and intakes see but the methanol is sitting for prolonged periods in the lines hence my concern.

I will def be going with a 50/50 mixture to start with.
 

bezerk

New member
Re: Methanol corrosion

why would you try a 50/50 mix?
in syty's it has been proven that they runs best on 100% alky. just make it as rich as you can and lean it out a bit on your feul table. there isn't a big powerloss with to much alky like you have with normal gas
 

dgoodhue

BuSTeD 4.3
Re: Methanol corrosion

6.65:1 compression ratio dual spark plug 4 valve engine about 10psi boost

Your basing what your going to run for a mixture on a airplane engine? It also doesn't mention if the engine is intercooled, which I am guess it is not.
 

Quickstop [UK]

Combating adversyty.
Re: Methanol corrosion

No - I'm going to follow the advice on syty but I am really curious about this stuff....

I can't afford to be a pioneer but doesn't it intrigue you?
 

Neelsonwheels

Donating Member
Re: Methanol corrosion

I don't know how long my truck previous owner has had the methanol kit installed on my Typhoon but I have had it going on two years and have not noticed any corrosion in the upper intake or throttle body.
I run 100 percent meth. I have braided lines from Devils own installed and some from Jegs.
The Methanol flashes instantly when it hits the hot intake air so none of it sits in anything other than the the methanol supply lines,pump,and tank. By the way the braided lines from devils own are stainless steel with plastic interior and the jegs lines are stainless steel with a methanol safe rubber (or rubber like) hose. The Jegs line is more flexible.
Good luck.
 

Quickstop [UK]

Combating adversyty.
Re: Methanol corrosion

NASIOC forum

I'll post the pictures separately later...

But in summary....

Cool intake air
70/30meth/water has the same knock resistance from 11 to 20 AFR but then better knock suppression the LEANER it gets up to AFR of 25.

Hot intake air
It has the same knock suppression at 11 AFR as it does at 22.5. 11 to 22.5 has HIGHER knock susceptibility than either extreme with a trough at 17.

In all cases, meth/water outperforms water by itself. I would love to see a graph with just methanol.

Wow.
 

BMFB

Not to scale
Re: Methanol corrosion

NASIOC forum

I'll post the pictures separately later...

But in summary....

Cool intake air
70/30meth/water has the same knock resistance from 11 to 20 AFR but then better knock suppression the LEANER it gets up to AFR of 25.

Hot intake air
It has the same knock suppression at 11 AFR as it does at 22.5. 11 to 22.5 has HIGHER knock susceptibility than either extreme with a trough at 17.

In all cases, meth/water outperforms water by itself. I would love to see a graph with just methanol.


Wow.

whats concidered hot intake air?
 
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