Might convert to a 5/6 speed in the gt

2kwik4u

Resident slow guy
Re: Might convert to a 5/6 speed in the gt

George Blake said:
Read the info on them. If it was a bolt in, everyone wouldn't be wanting the conversion plates.

It is a bolt in on 2wd applications.......Use an LT1 flywheel, clutch, starter, drill/tap a hole in the block for the starter, shorten the driveshaft, and faba crossmember.....I've seen a dozen s-series guys do it.

In a 4wd/AWD application I 120% understand the need for an adapter plate on the rear of the transmission, but don't see how that affects the front part of the transmission where it bolts to the motor.
 

Robert Lone

MUTANT
Re: Might convert to a 5/6 speed in the gt

2kwik4u said:
It is a bolt in on 2wd applications.......Use an LT1 flywheel, clutch, starter, drill/tap a hole in the block for the starter, shorten the driveshaft, and faba crossmember.....I've seen a dozen s-series guys do it.

In a 4wd/AWD application I 120% understand the need for an adapter plate on the rear of the transmission, but don't see how that affects the front part of the transmission where it bolts to the motor.


The location of the trans in general makes a big difference.

Even w/ my custom bellhousing and cutsomized tranny case they still had to section a crossmember to fit the T-case in. The T-56 is so much longer that a 700 that it's a big PITA.
 

George Blake

DONATING MEMBER
Re: Might convert to a 5/6 speed in the gt

That is a full size truck. Not an S-10. There is a pic on their website. Look how far back the shifter is. Unless you want the passenger to sit backwards and shift for you, it's not a bolt in. I'm not gonna argue it. Marty has the info he needs now. Hopefully you'll give us an update Marty. If you go with the 1200 unit, (seems like your that kind of guy), please let us know how it goes :tup:
 

2kwik4u

Resident slow guy
Re: Might convert to a 5/6 speed in the gt

George Blake said:
That is a full size truck. Not an S-10. There is a pic on their website. Look how far back the shifter is. Unless you want the passenger to sit backwards and shift for you, it's not a bolt in. I'm not gonna argue it. Marty has the info he needs now. Hopefully you'll give us an update Marty. If you go with the 1200 unit, (seems like your that kind of guy), please let us know how it goes :tup:


George, I'm not intending to argue, but the shifter comes up right at the front edge of the seats......While about 6-10" further back than a stock S-series, it's hardly at a place where someone has to sit backwards.

I'll try to find some pics of peoples installs to illustrate.
 

'JustDreamin'

Dream: 6LV8 Turbo Bravada
Re: Might convert to a 5/6 speed in the gt

George Blake mentioned Rockland Standard Gear and I just wanted to put in my $0.02....

I called them up looking to adapt my NV136 tcase to 32 splines, figured there might be an adapter or something. Spoke with George in the tech department. After we got over the "why would you want to do that?" part of the discussion (explained to him I was going to a 6.0L V8 & 4L80E and keeping AWD) he jumped right in with "I can build you a custom transfer case to do what you're looking for". Those guys built me a custom NV 136 / NV 246 hybrid to fit my needs. Basically its the NV136 case and sensors loaded with the NV246 guts (input shaft, heavier clutch pack, heavier chain) but without low range, so that it should function just like the NV136 box I took out.

George at RSGear was good to deal with. Worked out a solution to my problem that was easy (just bolt it up) and reasonably cost effective ($1000 for a fully rebuilt transfer case with new clutch, chain, bearings, all new sensors & a new actuator motor, and no core charge). I looked and couldn't find a used NV246 for under $600 from salvage yards, so I feel like I got a decent deal on a completely rebuilt custom unit.

I expect that they'll be very helpful in getting a customized T56 for your truck. Call them up, ask for George. He knows his stuff....

'JustDreamin'
 

HighPerformanceTrucks

Lift & Shift Specialist
Re: Might convert to a 5/6 speed in the gt

Since we are talking about custom transfer cases, lets build an electronic TC that can vary the traction between the front and rear driveline!
 

Robert Lone

MUTANT
Re: Might convert to a 5/6 speed in the gt

ivanko barbell said:
Since we are talking about custom transfer cases, lets build an electronic TC that can vary the traction between the front and rear driveline!
...and a partridge in a pear tree. :tup:
 

HighPerformanceTrucks

Lift & Shift Specialist
Re: Might convert to a 5/6 speed in the gt

Let's start a parts list or "recipe" so the t56 AWD build can happen!

Sounds like the motor/transmission issue is figured out.

I talked with Advance Adapters and there may be light at the end of the tunnel for a transfer case/transmission adpater.

I can have transmission crossmembers made up very nicely from Samco.

I'll keep you posted.
 

2kwik4u

Resident slow guy
Re: Might convert to a 5/6 speed in the gt

As promised here is a picture of where the shifter is located on a 2nd gen truck with a T56 installed. This truck used all the LT1 stuff (flywheel, clutch, starter, transmission).......This is a 2wd application, however the AWD would put the shifter in the same place, your driveshafts would adjust for you.

Is there any concern that the front shaft is longer than the rear? If not then I would think this to be a 100% viable solution.

T56 shifter location in 2nd gen 2wd truck
 

Robert Lone

MUTANT
Re: Might convert to a 5/6 speed in the gt

ivanko barbell said:
Let's start a parts list or "recipe" so the t56 AWD build can happen!

Sounds like the motor/transmission issue is figured out.

I talked with Advance Adapters and there may be light at the end of the tunnel for a transfer case/transmission adpater.

I can have transmission crossmembers made up very nicely from Samco.

I'll keep you posted.

We need to get mine at your house for a baseline if nothing else. It'll bolt in any Sy and works flawlessly. That way if you run into a speedbump you can go back to mine and say, "We know this works. Now how are we going to build mine?"

I think it'll be better than going into the project blind.
 

Robert Lone

MUTANT
Re: Might convert to a 5/6 speed in the gt

midnightbluS10 said:
Here are some specs for shifter location etc... for the T56

http://www.5speedtransmissions.com/6_speed.html

and this page has the 700 for comparison
For reference, here's my modified location...
IM001050.jpg

Notice the top plate of the shifter has been cut to clear the housing.
 

'JustDreamin'

Dream: 6LV8 Turbo Bravada
Re: Might convert to a 5/6 speed in the gt

Thats a good picture of what was done.....

I was looking for pics of the some of the available tailshaft housings.

Check out: http://www.rsgear.com/RacePerformancefiles/frame.htm

T56-016V shows a standard F-body tailshaft with the shifter at the very rear.
T56-012 is a Ford tailshaft housing with the shifter pretty far forward.
T56-018 is the Viper tailshaft housing, and the shifter looks even further forward.

To me it looks like the Ford or Viper tailshaft housings would be the best starting point.

'JustDreamin'
 
Re: Might convert to a 5/6 speed in the gt

Well this swao into a 2wd is pretty easy and straight forward. I think it would be a sweet swap for the Syborg better than the black truck. You have to keep one close to stock.
 

HighPerformanceTrucks

Lift & Shift Specialist
Re: Might convert to a 5/6 speed in the gt

Well I gave Mike at Advanced Adapters photos and all the juicy info on our transfer case, so I should hear back from him on Monday hopefully with encouraging news.

Also, Weir isn't too far from me in Sonoma CA. He said he specializes in custom parts and could build the adapter. He needs me to send him my transfer case and old 700 case for reference.

I'll wait to hear back from AA first.
 

HighPerformanceTrucks

Lift & Shift Specialist
Re: Might convert to a 5/6 speed in the gt

I spoke with George of RS Gear, these guys build the transmissions for SCCA and Grand Sport racing btw and he said due to the huge initial torque and no wheel spin, even the chrome moly output shaft on his 1200 hp rated $7000 T-56 racing transmission could fracture during hard launches. The 27 spline shaft is the achilles heel.

So durablilty is an issue with the manual trans.
 

'JustDreamin'

Dream: 6LV8 Turbo Bravada
Re: Might convert to a 5/6 speed in the gt

Durability is always going to be an issue with pretty much any manual transmission.

Shock Loading is the problem.

An automatic doing a brake launch has alot of torque built up in the driveline (working against the brakes), so when you finally let go of the brakes and nail the throttle (maybe in the opposite order) you don't suddenly have 1500 ft-lbs of torque hitting the output shaft. Instead, you already have a bunch of power applied, you've taken all the slack out of the driveline, and you're just adding more power. Plus, the torque convertor is a fluid clutch, it can't "grab" so to speak.

With a manual, you're sitting there with the clutch in, waiting to go, trying to figure out how to make boost with no load (stutter box or whatever) and then you drop the clutch on the poor thing. Goes from no load to full load in a blink of an eye (ok, maybe 2 blinks). Problem is there may be slack in the drivetrain, and you take up that slack all of a sudden (like taking up the slack in a chain all at once). That kind of thing usually results in broken parts, because the loading is just so severe. Add to the drivetrain slack the fact that the clutch is a mechanical coupling (with additional shock factors) and probably inconsistent application (that'd be cockpit error) and there is no good way to guarantee that the trans won't break parts.

Not to disagree with George at RSGear, but the 27 spline shaft really isn't the problem (or shouldn't be). The powerglide runs 27 spline shafts and lives just fine behind big blocks in a multitude of applications.

If you put the trans behind a 500 to 700 hp race motor (like the SCCA and Grand Sport applications), wind it up to where the motor makes power (call it 4000+ rpm) and drop the clutch for a standing start, you certainly run the risk of breaking stuff.

The clutch in a manual transmission application is kinda like a fuse. I think the selection of the appropriate clutch (and pressure plate since they work together as a package) will be critical. You need to have one that will grab consistently and not too quickly. You don't need lightswitch action (on or off), you need some slip to minimize the shock loading. You need a clutch that can do that and not wear out in 2 months. And you need one that can hang on to the amount of power you're going to make. Most of the race clutches (the little multidisk setups that are used for reduced rotational inertia and ground clearance) grab pretty quick and I don't think they like to slip, and probably aren't a good choice.

And ultimately, whether the trans and clutch survive will come down to your driving technique.


So, it all comes down to what do YOU want to do. Obviously the 700R4 has some durability problems. The T56 may not be all that much better, depending upon your usage. For the dragstrip, I think a TH400 or 4L80E would be a much better choice (depending upon the need for street cruising ablitity). But for a road course / pro-solo / SCCA corner burner, a manual trans might be worth the effort. Then all you have to do is figure out whether the T56 is enough trans or not (or whether you've got to go to a Jerico 4 speed or something like that to get the durability.)

'JustDreamin'
 
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