OBDI Tuning

Tooky

Serious about performance
Re: OBDI Tuning

PhantomGTZ you might be able to get away with the "bandaid" ideas, if you find that level of performance acceptable to you. I think what people are saying is, there is no question that the control is more complete and robust, if you have full ECM control. But I can't deny you may be able to get decent performance out of a bandaid.
 

JSM

Active member
Re: OBDI Tuning

FMU is linear changes a motor requirements are not. Bandaid.

As mentioned the middle man devices trick computer, etc. Bandaid

In the end yes you can get bandaid solutions to work, but you will have the performance of a bandaid also.

The theory you get what you pay for applies to everything in life. Sometimes the pay though is research on your part, internet searches, etc. not always $$.

What we are saying is time for you to pay in order to get a real solution. www.google.com needs to be your friend.
 

TheBoxingPikey

ForTheHorde!!!
Re: OBDI Tuning

Okay. Im definetly not sure what car your trying to tune here but the ideal thing to do is get a 7730 or 7749 ECM, a 2 or 3 bar map sensor, and a binary file from a syclone. Dont use a regulator or FMU. Definetly not worth it compared to the advantages of prom burning. Dont know how to burn/edit proms try this... http://thirdgen.org/techbb2/showthread.php?s=&threadid=288763. Thats more than enough to get you going. Trust me ive gone the FMU route and now will be going to a 7730 pinned out to a a 7749.
 

PhantomGTZ

New member
Re: OBDI Tuning

TheBoxingPikey said:
Okay. Im definetly not sure what car your trying to tune here but the ideal thing to do is get a 7730 or 7749 ECM, a 2 or 3 bar map sensor, and a binary file from a syclone. Dont use a regulator or FMU. Definetly not worth it compared to the advantages of prom burning. Dont know how to burn/edit proms try this... http://thirdgen.org/techbb2/showthread.php?s=&threadid=288763. Thats more than enough to get you going. Trust me ive gone the FMU route and now will be going to a 7730 pinned out to a a 7749.

thank you very much for the link.

Does anyone here have experience with ladder logic and programming CNC equipment? Any similarities with this tuning software?

By telling me to go with the Syclone ECU, are you telling me to basically take the Syclone programming and change the specifics the run the 4 cylinder?

Wouldn't it be easier to modify the stock Quad prom to run in the syclone computer, and then bring the tables closer to the characteristics of the boosted application?

Does the syclone computer control the transmission at all?

sorry about the questions, I appreciate the help though guys. I've already read alot of the documents you've linked to. None of them talk about FWD applications, so I'm a bit worried as of now.

-Joel
 

JSM

Active member
Re: OBDI Tuning

Does anyone here have experience with ladder logic and programming CNC equipment? Any similarities with this tuning software?
Yes, Do cnc daily. No comparison to either. Aside from using a keyboard for both.

By telling me to go with the Syclone ECU, are you telling me to basically take the Syclone programming and change the specifics the run the 4 cylinder?
That is one way to go about it.

Wouldn't it be easier to modify the stock Quad prom to run in the syclone computer, and then bring the tables closer to the characteristics of the boosted application?
Either way requires lots of tuning. You may try both at first see what is closer, but you will be changing most everything anyways.

Does the syclone computer control the transmission at all?
Nothing other than TCC lockup.

None of them talk about FWD applications, so I'm a bit worried as of now.

The engine has no idea what wheels it is turning. FWD, RWD, has no change in how to tune an engine/ecm. Heck our SYTY's are FWD also. With some RWD action in there also.
 

PhantomGTZ

New member
Re: OBDI Tuning

One major thing I'm looking at is the fact that the 88 Quad 4 ran on the same ECM as the syclone. That could be a nice shortcut.
 

PhantomGTZ

New member
Re: OBDI Tuning

You guys I have found a new development.

I have been told from a good source that there is a turbo code out there for the quad 4.

Initially the Quad 4 was slated to be turbocharged and one year has a dual .bin file loaded into the ECU. I've been told that all you need to do is crack the ECU to look at the other .bin file.

Can this be done with the TunerPro RT software, or is this a soldering affair?

thanks,

-Joel
 
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dgoodhue

BuSTeD 4.3
Re: OBDI Tuning

I don't think their is any dual bin or locked, the functionatliy maybe in the ECM programing, but disabled in the Quad 4 programing. Our .bin have programing that doesn't apply to our truck but I assume it its for Turbo sunbirds.
 

PhantomGTZ

New member
Re: OBDI Tuning

I also wanted to point out that the 88-92 lotus Esprit Turbo used the same ECM as the Quad 4. (1228707) That is probably the best starting point.

I'm looking into whether or not that car used a distributer or had the same firing order. GM owned lotus back then, so I know it used GM sensors....
 

dgoodhue

BuSTeD 4.3
Re: OBDI Tuning

Forget the Lotus their won't be any DIY support or defination files for them.

So you don't have a 749? Is your ECM Map based?
 

PhantomGTZ

New member
Re: OBDI Tuning

Yes my car is MAP based.

The lotus engine uses similar lift, with more duration on the cams from what I gather.

other than that, the engines both have the same distributer-less ignition system, ECM box, and are within 100cc of eachother. They both use the same injection system and GM sensors.

I have half a mind to see if the chip will run my car. Its amazing because looking at pictures, the cylinder heads are almost identical, and the starter and engine mounting are in very similar positions (except rear mounted engine vs front).

The duration of the cams I think is the only obstacle as to whether or not the car would idle. I need to verify first what the duration is. The cars have similar redlines, so I can't imagine the duration could be too much higher.

Reverse engineering might prevail here. There is plenty of support for modifying these MEMCALS.

http://users.ox.ac.uk/~ohare/ecu.htm

this website also has all the maps and most important items to modify.
 

dgoodhue

BuSTeD 4.3
Re: OBDI Tuning

Well that may just work, I am a little shocked this is available given Lotus's small production numbers. It looks like a tunercat .bin editor to me.

I would want a wiring diagram to make sure the pinouts are exactly the same. (i know its the same ECM, but its doesn't mean the pinout are the same, some of the pins on the ECM are configureable by the .bin)
 

PhantomGTZ

New member
Re: OBDI Tuning

Is that hard to tweak? (the pinout values?)

ALSO:
The Lotus uses the same style injectors as the Quad 4. I just have to upgrade from the 33lb injectors to the 36 lb injectors (dirt cheap from Ford Turbo Coupe, even refurbished). The cam specs are very close. Lift and duration.

The only wild card is the two secondary injectors on the Lotus. The Lotus has 2 secondary injectors that are high impedance, 18lb injectors. They only are engaged at 4500+ RPM and when the car sees .7 bar of boost.

My Plan:

I wire my harness into the different pinouts of the Lotus ECU box, then run the extra (new) wires to the secondary injectors placed before the throttle body. The lotus box is ready to buy and is the standard equipment for the 1991 Cutlass Supreme.

I know this is not going to be as easy as I'm hoping, but I think it will idle and run. Then some fine tuning.

-Joel
 

turbodig

Active member
Re: OBDI Tuning

I'm a bit confused by this entire thread, but here's my $.02...

As others have noted, this isn't going to be a quick-n-dirty project... more like a years-long
ordeal. I know guys who spent 2-3 summers trying to cross breed an ECM.
Assuming you're willing to do what it takes, here we go.

For this particular application, I'm not sure why you *wouldn't* use a '749, considering they
came in '88 quad4 cars natively. The quad cars had some pinout differences from the Sunbird,
which I'm sure you've noted by now. You should be able to take the Sunbird pinout from
the gmecm web site and compare it to your stocker to determine which lines are the same, and
which are different. These are the lines you'll need to change once you convert.
If you want to have both sets of pinouts, you could fab yourself a "go between" adapter
that will allow you to plug both ECMs in, but it's a lotta extra work.

The '749 ECM and Sunbird code will run the Quad4 DIS, as I understand things. You'll
likely have to play with the timing values quite a bit in the chip calibration, but that's probably
the least of your worries.

I don't remember off the top of my head whether you said the vehicle is still running on the
stock ECM right now? If it is, there's a fair amount of testing you can do to validate
some of what you need to know.

The bit about the turbo quad4 bin: I have no doubt in my mind that there is one some-
where in the GM library, since there was one that came out of the GM raceshop. Even
if you did find it, it likely wouldn't be even close to your setup calibration-wise.

Start with the '749 ECM, get your pinout differences resolved first, then get a '749
with a Sunbird memcal (not a Syty) and Tunerpro to edit the chip. I would think that
the base sunbird bin should maybe start enough to get going. You'll probably need to
modify that Memcal for ESC to work properly, but that won't keep you from getting it
running.

The important differences in the two wiring setups are the fuel injector wiring (batch in
the sunbird and sequential in the quad) and the EST/ESC/ignition stuff.

Also, if you don't have a wide-band 02 setup, and you're at all serious about this,
get one. It'll save tons of time.

Also,

Read, read, read. http://www.diy-efi-org/gmecm
Lots of guys have been down this road before... you can learn from their mistakes.
 

PhantomGTZ

New member
Re: OBDI Tuning

Thanks for the post.

Now I'm a bit confused here about the direction your pointing me in.

I have the fuel, coolant, and timing maps for the lotus engine. I can't use the 5500 RPM - 7000 RPM range due to the fact that the Lotus utilizes secondary injectors. I could probably map the high RPM similar to other 4 cyl applications (Saab 9-3 Viggen, Rex Weatherford's T3 powered Quad 4 GTZ).

The lotus uses the same ECM as the I do. Why would I want to start from scratch? I'm negotiating the purchase of the definition file for my engine/trans/ECM combination from a specific company that sells chips.

Keep in mind that I'm not talking about a total swap in information here. But the cars should be in the same power range given their many similarities.

Differences:

-I'm running 8.5:1 compression verses the Lotus' 8:1

-Lotus runs a .63 A/R Garrett T3 vs. my .60 A/R (close but worth mentioning)

-I'll be running 450cc or 550cc injectors instead of 370cc.

-My car made ~200 hp naturally aspirated vs. ~170 N/A lotus.

As of right now I don't think a 749 Quad 4 definition exists. I can't find a single aftermarket chip dealer that even offers one for the 88 models.
 

PhantomGTZ

New member
Re: OBDI Tuning

WOW...

I'm reading this thread again, and I can't believe you guys had as much patience as you did.

Just an update:

A few people are working on the 1228707 ECM, and the following has been located:

a. Rev limiter (fuel cutout and re-start)
b. Speed limiter (fuel cutout and re-start)
c. Idle speed map (function of coolant temp)
d. "Fuel" maps (defined as VE, Volumetric Efficiency, in %). Two maps: lower RPM and extended RPM
e. Spark maps, although I'm baffled why there's two of them -- similar shape, but different max timing magnitudes. And they don't fit together like the fuel maps do.


I believe the two timing maps are the normal values and the power enrichment tables correct?


Also:

How close are the Sunbird and Syclone definition files? I wonder if the 88' Quad 4 could be similar. Now that I have the stock W41 Quad 4 maps, I think it would be much easier to work from the 7749 ECM.
 
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PhantomGTZ

New member
Re: OBDI Tuning

Looking at this from another angle....The grand national...

its already set for my style of ignition setup. Maybe thats a better route.
 

dgoodhue

BuSTeD 4.3
Re: OBDI Tuning

PhantomGTZ said:
Looking at this from another angle....The grand national...

its already set for my style of ignition setup. Maybe thats a better route.

The problem with the Grand National ECM is that its of the really old ECM design. I would consider it the first generation GM ECM's, ours are sort like a second generation. The GN's have Smaller Chips (less functionality) and slower ALDL data rates unless you tap into the ECM. I haven't used the scan tools that tap into the ECM, but using ALDL type scan tool are really hard to tune, when the data is being refresh a little over 1 sec, or another way to think of it, WOT in first gear maybe only 2 data points, 2nd gear only 3 or 4. In a quarter miles, it maybe only dozen data points while SyTy ECM would be up around 100. The advantage of the GN is that it uses MAF sensor which is easier to tune for beginners.
 
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