Possible 32 spline input shaft GP

[Foot Performance]

Re: Possible 32 spline input shaft GP

Are there any other transfer cases available or is it military grade HWMMV stuff we're moving onto here?

There are no big spline transfer cases that are AWD:tup:

 

[Quickstop [UK]]

Re: Possible 32 spline input shaft GP

There are no big spline transfer cases that are AWD:tup:

Umm.....you sure about that? Pretty sure there are. Can't quote any but I imagine there are.

 

['JustDreamin']

Re: Possible 32 spline input shaft GP

Depends upon whether GM's AutoTrac system qualifies as AWD or not. If it qualifies, then the NV246 is available in a 32 spline input. But its really a 2wd box with a BIG electric clutch on the front output shaft allowing it to be locked up "On Demand"

If the AutoTrac system doesn't qualify as AWD (or is too complicated since sensors and computers are required) then I would agree, I don't think there is a true AWD tcase available in a big spline setup. The NV149 is 27 spline. Not sure of the shaft size / spline count of the Jeep boxes (NV 247 for example).

Chart of NV tcases: http://moose.ca/node/46

'JustDreamin'

 

[JSM]

Re: Possible 32 spline input shaft GP

I will keep building custom parts until it is reliable or my body gives up on me.

Have lathe/mill/Tig and a lack of common sense.

 

[Foot Performance]

Re: Possible 32 spline input shaft GP

Depends upon whether GM's AutoTrac system qualifies as AWD or not. If it qualifies, then the NV246 is available in a 32 spline input. But its really a 2wd box with a BIG electric clutch on the front output shaft allowing it to be locked up "On Demand" http://moose.ca/node/46

'JustDreamin'

That is what I call "auto" 4wd they are still selectable from 4 hi lo 2wd and auto

ours are AWD so when you go around corners and park they dont jerk aournd like a 4wd truck.

plus you would have more electronics that and 80e to control it

as far as I know all the AWD case are in denali ss pickup are all behind 4l60e

every thing else will need a contolor or a maunul shifter


I am not sayen there are not big all wheel drive cases out there I just havent seen any GM ones

 

['JustDreamin']

Re: Possible 32 spline input shaft GP

The only ones I'm not sure about are the Dodge / Jeep cases.

The NV149 was in the Silvy SS, and it was behind a 4L65E (so 27 spline). Don't know if 32 spline was ever available on that tcase using factory parts (doubtful, but possible). And some of the SS guys have managed to blow up the tcases, which is something that doesn't seem to happen all that often with the BW4472 and Sy / Ty guys. May have just been guys being stupid (dyno pulls while only loading the rear wheels burning up VC's for example) or maybe design / build issues, I don't know. But seems like opening a whole 'nother can of worms that isn't a bunch stronger, not really a solution.

The Dodge cases look like they're 23 spline, but not sure of the shaft diameter (which is important). Haven't found that tidbit of info. Probably rules them out as well.

Which basically leaves Jeff in the position of his only viable solution to keep AWD and not break stuff is to make better shafts.


I personally would suggest examining the input to the tcase to see if it can be upgraded to 32 spline in a safe strong manner. May involve making the OD of the input shaft (and the associated bearing) bigger, which may not be practical.

'JustDreamin'

 

[Foot Performance]

Re: Possible 32 spline input shaft GP

The only ones I'm not sure about are the Dodge / Jeep cases.

The NV149 was in the Silvy SS, and it was behind a 4L65E (so 27 spline). Don't know if 32 spline was ever available on that tcase using factory parts (doubtful, but possible). And some of the SS guys have managed to blow up the tcases, which is something that doesn't seem to happen all that often with the BW4472 and Sy / Ty guys. May have just been guys being stupid (dyno pulls while only loading the rear wheels burning up VC's for example) or maybe design / build issues, I don't know. But seems like opening a whole 'nother can of worms that isn't a bunch stronger, not really a solution.

The Dodge cases look like they're 23 spline, but not sure of the shaft diameter (which is important). Haven't found that tidbit of info. Probably rules them out as well.

Which basically leaves Jeff in the position of his only viable solution to keep AWD and not break stuff is to make better shafts.


I personally would suggest examining the input to the tcase to see if it can be upgraded to 32 spline in a safe strong manner. May involve making the OD of the input shaft (and the associated bearing) bigger, which may not be practical.

'JustDreamin'

This place make all kinds of adapter but looks like no 80e stuff
http://www.novak-adapt.com/
but from what I have seen of the jeep stuff it is not very strong(factory).

I think the solution is input or output shaft for our t-case :2cents:

 

[JSM]

Re: Possible 32 spline input shaft GP

I think 32 spline output size is about the most practical that you can make the input of our transfer case work. My issue with not doing 32 to begin with is how thin the input gets on transfer case. As JustDreamin menionted one option is to look at a bigger bearing on transfer case side so that the input can be left larger. This is something I have already quickly looked at and plan to investigate further.

In the end its a can of worms in terms of how far do you go, or do you stop somewhere and just see what happens.

Right now I am researching how to properly machine these billets I have coming. Its not as easy as just machining then send to heat treat. Its really a partially machine, heat treat, quench, maybe cryo, then final machine to final size.

Again I plan to share all my research with you guys, granted 99% of you will never have this problem.

 

[Quickstop [UK]]

Re: Possible 32 spline input shaft GP

Is there nio military heavy duty stuff that has AWD for the Vikings or Mastiffs/HWMMVs? Can't imagine there isn't but I :dunno:

A custom transfer case....now theres a project...

Jeff?

 

[JSM]

Re: Possible 32 spline input shaft GP

Is there nio military heavy duty stuff that has AWD for the Vikings or Mastiffs/HWMMVs? Can't imagine there isn't but I :dunno:

A custom transfer case....now theres a project...

Jeff?

Someone fund it, I will make it happen.

I had thoughts years ago about making a custom coupler using automatic trans clutch packs, energizing them somehow (air/hyrdraulic?) so that you could launch AWD then slowly release it down track. Be a rebuildable unit also.

 

['JustDreamin']

Re: Possible 32 spline input shaft GP

I had thoughts years ago about making a custom coupler using automatic trans clutch packs, energizing them somehow (air/hyrdraulic?) so that you could launch AWD then slowly release it down track. Be a rebuildable unit also.

That would be possible with existing hardware.

Run the NV246 behind an 80E (all 32 spline parts, bolts up from the factory). Leave out the low range parts (making it a NV146 which the factory didn't build). NV246 is an "On Demand" box, as mentioned earlier.

The part that is missing is the controls to drive the shift motor on the tcase. If you're looking for 4wd transitioning to 2wd, then you need to apply that big honking clutch, and release it somewhere mid track. The obvious trick would be to get it to release slowly. But, compared to building all new hardware, that should be reasonably easy.

But, the problem is when you put said truck on the street and ask it to act like an AWD truck. I would expect the controls to get alot more complicated. Maybe it could be done simply (maybe off of a TPS and boost?) but I expect getting driveability sorted would be the challenge (so it doesn't try to lock up while doing parking lot manuevers or unlock when it shouldn't).



Since the truck is broke, the practical solution is to fix what you've got in a method that keeps you from having to do it 3 more times in the next 2000 miles (would get old (and expensive) to have to swap trannies every 500 miles).

I don't think I've got any resources to help you with regards to heat treat. We do some here, but most of it is Austempering, which is not applicable to your needs. We do build tools here (typically O1, S7, A2, or some of the powdered metal stuff (like M4). We typically try to get close to size (plus .010" or more depending upon the dimensions and how much we think it'll move), then heat / temper, then finish machine (usually either surface grind, wire EDM, or hard turning, don't do any splines or contour grinding here).

The person doing your heat treating will also have a really big impact on your results. We sent out a 12" sq piece of A2 (1/2" thick) to be hardened (with 125 holes in it), and were amazed that it came back flat within .004". We think they hung it vertically from the holes. Same will apply to your shafting, if they hang / fixture it correctly, it should stay straight. Done wrong and it'll be curved and require alot of material removal to be straight. Might even think about adding material like a lug at the end of the shaft that can be cut off with a hole in it to allow for someplace to hang the shaft for hardening. Certainly something to ask questions about.

'JustDreamin'

 

[Foot Performance]

Re: Possible 32 spline input shaft GP

I think 32 spline output size is about the most practical that you can make the input of our transfer case work. My issue with not doing 32 to begin with is how thin the input gets on transfer case. As JustDreamin menionted one option is to look at a bigger bearing on transfer case side so that the input can be left larger. This is something I have already quickly looked at and plan to investigate further.

I just wouldnt think the thinkness would be the main concern. I would think the splines would give long befor the outside part of the shaft would split. I was looking at my prime gears one and it seems pritty thick. :dunno:

 

['JustDreamin']

Re: Possible 32 spline input shaft GP

It may be thick enough, but thicker would be better for the way it is being used.

Splines transmit force perpendicular to the flats, so a component of the torque being transmitted through the spline set is trying to wedge the two parts apart. The hoop stresses will be a function of the transmitted torque, more torque = bigger log splitter trying to break the shaft from the inside out. Which is why its a concern.

Another reason for concern is that we're going towards higher strength materials, which are almost always more brittle. Which means they'll be stronger, but less likely to bend and more likely to break / snap / explode. They'll also be more sensitive to stress concentrations created by cutting the splines.

'JustDreamin'

 

[Foot Performance]

Re: Possible 32 spline input shaft GP

I dont know what the OD of the newer t-cases are vs bw 4472 but as far as input shaft I know th nvg 263, 261, 149, 246 all use the same input shaft seal even if it has the allison (I think) 29 spline input shaft.

That is why I didnt think thinkness of the shaft would be the main concern. I know thicker would be better but changing bearings and everything to me may just be a waste of time and money.

What is robert running or other low 10 trucks??? Just wondering if anyone has used and abused the 32 spline input shaft?

 

[turbodig]

Re: Possible 32 spline input shaft GP

That would be possible with existing hardware.

Run the NV246 behind an 80E (all 32 spline parts, bolts up from the factory). Leave out the low range parts (making it a NV146 which the factory didn't build). NV246 is an "On Demand" box, as mentioned earlier.

The part that is missing is the controls to drive the shift motor on the tcase. If you're looking for 4wd transitioning to 2wd, then you need to apply that big honking clutch, and release it somewhere mid track. The obvious trick would be to get it to release slowly. But, compared to building all new hardware, that should be reasonably easy.

But, the problem is when you put said truck on the street and ask it to act like an AWD truck. I would expect the controls to get alot more complicated. Maybe it could be done simply (maybe off of a TPS and boost?) but I expect getting driveability sorted would be the challenge (so it doesn't try to lock up while doing parking lot manuevers or unlock when it shouldn't).

I'm not sure there would be that much value in having the AWD unlock down the track, ET-wise, unless you had a really big mismatch in tire size at speed. The weight and drag from the front end components are there whether you have them connected to power or not.

The real benefit to this setup would be the ability to quickly unlock the front to do a really good burnout on the rears (ie, slicks). You can do this with a simple cable de-activate on the 4x4-style axle shaft, but having a switch to run a clutch would be much more elegant.

Controlling a case like that wouldn't really take much for electronics, unless it's got an on-board CPU of its own.

I'd wonder about the strength/longevity of the clutch, though. How big is this t-case?

 

[Foot Performance]

Re: Possible 32 spline input shaft GP

You can do this with a simple cable de-activate on the 4x4-style axle shaft, but having a switch to run a clutch would be much more elegant.

One set easier you could just put a reagualar 4x4 front axle in it and use the solenoid to lock and unlock the front axle (the older ones may be vacuum?)

 

[dgoodhue]

Re: Possible 32 spline input shaft GP

I'm not sure there would be that much value in having the AWD unlock down the track, ET-wise, unless you had a really big mismatch in tire size at speed. The weight and drag from the front end components are there whether you have them connected to power or not.

My first car I owned was 84 toyota 4x4 truck, I think it had 112hp. With hubs unlocked and 2wd, I could peg the speedometer past. It did maybe 95 mph. With the hubs locked (spinning the Front Differential, but still in 2wd), I struggled to hit 85 mph. With it in 4wd drive I could only must 72/73 mph, however that speed was done with coating of snow on the highway, so I imagine I was dealing increase rolling resistance.

That being said say the hp loss was 25 hp. In a theorectical Typhoon like Jeff's, if you disengage the awd and Front Differential at 330' mark and gain 25hp. You might only see 0.05 to .1 difference in ET but with a couple mph on the top end. It might also be better for top roll racing and better gas mileage. My Toyota truck FE economy went to crap in 4wd. It went from 20-22 to less than 15mpg.

 

[turbodig]

Re: Possible 32 spline input shaft GP

My first car I owned was 84 toyota 4x4 truck, I think it had 112hp. With hubs unlocked and 2wd, I could peg the speedometer past. It did maybe 95 mph. With the hubs locked (spinning the Front Differential, but still in 2wd), I struggled to hit 85 mph. With it in 4wd drive I could only must 72/73 mph, however that speed was done with coating of snow on the highway, so I imagine I was dealing increase rolling resistance.

Magic words... "with hubs unlocked". This would make it similar resistance-wise to a 2wd.
We don't have hubs to unlock, so the whole front end would spin, including the front propshaft up to the t-case.

If you wanted to eliminate that drag, you'd have to work out both a transfer case release and a hub release.

 

['JustDreamin']

Re: Possible 32 spline input shaft GP

I'm not sure there would be that much value in having the AWD unlock down the track, ET-wise, unless you had a really big mismatch in tire size at speed. The weight and drag from the front end components are there whether you have them connected to power or not.

The real benefit to this setup would be the ability to quickly unlock the front to do a really good burnout on the rears (ie, slicks). You can do this with a simple cable de-activate on the 4x4-style axle shaft, but having a switch to run a clutch would be much more elegant.

Controlling a case like that wouldn't really take much for electronics, unless it's got an on-board CPU of its own.

I'd wonder about the strength/longevity of the clutch, though. How big is this t-case?

The reason I had suggested it, is that Jeff had posted he'd thought about building a tcase to do just that.

I agree, that unlocking the center and still turning all those bits (front diff, half shafts, front propshaft) doesn't get you all that you could. But unlocking the front diff (pass side disconnect like the 4x4 S10s use) under any kind of load may not be wise or possible either.

As to the strength of the NV246, I'm not sure how stout it is/can be. NV rated it for an 8600 lb GVW, so it's rated for a 3/4 ton pickup, and also rated it for ~2300 ft lbs Max (using a 2.2 load factor = gasoline engine & manual trans).

'JustDreamin'

 

[sy2639]

Re: Possible 32 spline input shaft GP

How would these input shafts differ from the shafts previously offered here? Better/cheaper/both?

It looks like someone is still selling them on ebay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Cust...ptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories