Starter thoughts

Don W.

Don W.

Stab it and steer it
Just had an interesting chat with a local and very well respected rebuilder. In his opinion our standard Chev (and 454) hi torque (large frame) starter is better that any of the fancy gear drive starters you can buy aftermarket.. More reliable and easier to repair if necessary. In the end cheaper to.

:rant:Although a few of us seem to be a little thick headed about it, the trick is clean solid connections, 12v to the solenoid, and some heat protection.:rant:
 
sytyguy

sytyguy

Moderated User
Re: Starter thoughts

I have found that the ability to index the Hitachi units away from the DP/Manifold results in FAR greater reliability than the potential quality difference in the starters otherwise. Actual failed starters in our application are usually a faulty solenoid. Having the ability to rotate the solenoid away from the bulk of the heat is crucial. In fact, my starter's solenoid (indexed to point at the ground) is relatively cool to the touch after a drive.
 
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Poconojoe

Donating Member
Re: Starter thoughts

Don W. said:
Just had an interesting chat with a local and very well respected rebuilder. In his opinion our standard Chev (and 454) hi torque (large frame) starter is better that any of the fancy gear drive starters you can buy aftermarket.. More reliable and easier to repair if necessary. In the end cheaper to.

:rant:Although a few of us seem to be a little thick headed about it, the trick is clean solid connections, 12v to the solenoid, and some heat protection.:rant:
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Tell him to stick to building engines, ask anybody in the auto-electrical business, the PM type starter have a much lower failure rate, then the ones with field coils. Most vehicle that came with therm, go to the graveyard still have the originals onr them and have 150K plus on them, compared to vehicle that came with the old style that need them replaced at least once in their less then 100K lifetime. The mini-starter's biggest drawback, is if you drop it, you have a great chance of breaking the field magnets and rendering it, useless
 
Don W.

Don W.

Stab it and steer it
Re: Starter thoughts

Poconojoe said:
Tell him to stick to building engines, ask anybody in the auto-electrical business, the PM type starter have a much lower failure rate, then the ones with field coils. Most vehicle that came with therm, go to the graveyard still have the originals onr them and have 150K plus on them, compared to vehicle that came with the old style that need them replaced at least once in their less then 100K lifetime. The mini-starter's biggest drawback, is if you drop it, you have a great chance of breaking the field magnets and rendering it, useless
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He is a starter/alt rebuilder. It's all he does, been at it for many years. I often wonder if starters (among countless other items) are changed when the problem is elsewhere. Big truck starters, use the same basic design, have no PM's and start big motors literally thousands of times with little trouble.

We all have our opinions and that's good. There's lots of high quality replacement parts out there. I was just making the point that a properly functioning "stock" starter will work as good as any aftermarket and prolly for less money.
 
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Poconojoe

Donating Member
Re: Starter thoughts

Don W. said:
He is a starter/alt rebuilder. It's all he does, been at it for many years. I often wonder if starters (among countless other items) are changed when the problem is elsewhere. Big truck starters, use the same basic design, have no PM's and start big motors literally thousands of times with little trouble.

We all have our opinions and that's good. There's lots of high quality replacement parts out there. I was just making the point that a properly functioning "stock" starter will work as good as any aftermarket and prolly for less money.
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The big truck starters like you mention, the 20 & 24MT's if i remember correctly, are a fine example of a starter, that get rebuilt about ever two years, so that doesn't do your case much justice. Plus big trucks try to start only once a day and leave it idling all the rest of the time, so in two or so years, it might have only been started a thousand times or so. The reason trucks don't used PM starter, is because space isn't an issue, they have plenty of room to mount their starters, plus almost all truck starters are clockable, so they can move the soleniod away from the heat and obstructions. Me personally, I prefer the later model non-clockable PM factory starters, they make plenty of cranking power, are small and compact, and best of all are cheap and plentiful.
 
Don W.

Don W.

Stab it and steer it
Re: Starter thoughts

Well I would disagree. I still work part time as a driver and have been around big trucks all my life. When high torque 12v starters came out and we got rid of 24v starters with their very unreliable series/parallel switches starters ran for a long time. (Even then it often wasn't the starter, usually the "B" bats and the switch.) Where I work trucks are shut down and restarted many times a day. When I had my own trucks same thing. The truck I normally drive has not had its starter changed the entire time I've been there, 4 years this month.

Next time I see a transfer driver I'll see how they do. The use their starter to run the truck in reverse to hitch the trailer many times a day. Now -that- has got to be tough on a starter. Maybe it's the climate? Rarely gets below 30 out here. Low temps can change the picture quite a bit.
 
SY2455

SY2455

70's Veteran
Re: Starter thoughts

After many times of been there, done that on all kinds of starters on all kinds of makes. I will stay with the mini starters. The sound of the mini starter is a plus too.
 
Syclone#892

Syclone#892

Member
Re: Starter thoughts

Well my personal input is that the gear reduction style are far superior to the old big heavy clunky style.
My dad has rebuilt starter and alts my entire life so this is going off what he has learned and taught me.
Gear reduction are not affected by heat like the bigger starters, only the solenoid is affected. The gear reduction are much smaller, lighter and easier to replace.
Personally the gm stock style are the best bang for the buck, they work and sound great and are reasonably priced. Heres a pic http://www.summitracing.com/parts/PWM-9200/
Next are the nippondenso style which are the best out there, denso makes some very nice and reliable products and its awesome that people have found a way to make them work on trucks like ours. Heres a pic http://www.summitracing.com/parts/PWM-9500/
The last style I would ever get is the hitachi which my dad says break a lot. They see a lot of those come through the shop. Heres a pic http://www.summitracing.com/parts/PWM-9100/

Maybe your friend has rebuilt a lot of the hitachi and thats why he does not like them.

As far as big trucks are concerned, we have medium duty trucks and my work with a wide variety of engines, cat, cummins, detroit, isuzu. So far we have taken the stock broken heavy junk starter off 2 trucks(1 cat, 1 cummins) and installed new denso versions of the starters and my boss was shocked how much better these pieces of equipment start. Gear reduction has way more power than stock style and we have seen the difference on pieces of equipment that had a hard time starting in decent weather and no start in the cold and now they start right up even in the cold.

So in closing, get whatever starter makes you happy but I will take the light weight better starters anyday :D
 
Jimmy

Jimmy

Banned
Re: Starter thoughts

Ha.They don't make them like they used to,right? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xwYBBpHg1I

Right.

IMO the bulbous stupidly heavy stock starter (Which puts the heat sensitive solenoid and the teeny tiny purple wire almost on the exhaust manifold) is ancient.


I'll take the 2 finger install latest technology light weight twice as fast cranking POS with a lifetime warranty(I installed one,changed out the purple wire for 10ga from the brake booster back) that has lasted forever.No heat shielding,nothing fancy.

Only prob ever was this:http://www.syty.net/forums/showthread.php?t=38600
 
gkrcr882

gkrcr882

SyTyless......for now!
Re: Starter thoughts

Good read, I need to replace the starter on my Ty (solenoid took a dump and it only engages when it feels like it). From the sound of it, I'll give the mini a shot. Any recommendations?
 
Syclone#892

Syclone#892

Member
Re: Starter thoughts

gkrcr882 send me an email and let me know how soon you are looking to get a starter as I may be able to help you out:)
 
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Poconojoe

Donating Member
Re: Starter thoughts

Don W. said:
Interesting comments, all appreciated. Maybe I've just been lucky. It has seemed that way sometimes.:roll:

I'll certainly grant you we have a poor design on our trucks. Here's my fix. -0- problems so far.

See first pic here:

http://syty.net/forums/showthread.php?t=67538&highlight=starter
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Don that looks like a PM starter on your truck in that thread, not GR one, but still a PM one. I might be wrong since there is no real clear picture, but the field housing looks too small to have field coils inside..
 
Don W.

Don W.

Stab it and steer it
Re: Starter thoughts

Poconojoe said:
Don that looks like a PM starter on your truck in that thread, not GR one, but still a PM one. I might be wrong since there is no real clear picture, but the field housing looks too small to have field coils inside..
Click to expand...

Ha, good question. It's the stock, OE starter. Still chugging along. :tup:I'm afraid some may have thought I had to replace my starter, hence this thread, but nope.
 
gkrcr882

gkrcr882

SyTyless......for now!
Re: Starter thoughts

Got my 454 starter installed today, and it wasn't as bad as I was expecting. Tilt, pull, and down the old one comes....until it came down on my finger. :doh: . New one went in easier and has tons of power. Sounds pretty mean due to the gear reduction as well! I got pics of the old and new, however dialup ownz me, so they'll be up later.
 
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