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Quickstop [UK]
Combating adversyty.
Re: Steering and SUspension upgrades
nope!
How are yours coming along?
ivanko barbell said:
nope!
How are yours coming along?
Steering and SUspension upgrades
- Thread starter Quickstop [UK]
- Start date
turbodog
Donating Member
Re: Steering and SUspension upgrades
essentially, I found that a late-model F-body R&P is a good fit (after shortening the tie rods), except that the flange between the driver side exhaust manifold and the crossover pipe is in exactly the wrong spot. Nothing a custom manifold/header wouldn't cure. Not in my time or money budget at the moment, though.
essentially, I found that a late-model F-body R&P is a good fit (after shortening the tie rods), except that the flange between the driver side exhaust manifold and the crossover pipe is in exactly the wrong spot. Nothing a custom manifold/header wouldn't cure. Not in my time or money budget at the moment, though.
Quickstop [UK]
Combating adversyty.
Re: Steering and SUspension upgrades
stock manifolds or atr? what is conflicting?
did you get it on the truck or is it theoretical? I hear that ATR headers suck so if someone produced custom headers that were compatible with the R&P setup ( shining a spotlight with a "JS / RPM / E-Rue" symbol into the night - come on guys. what do you think) then there might be a market for this.
Especially as I have seen someone else trying this (mattw) on another thread.
http://www.syty.net/forums/showthread.php?t=16272
fingers crossed!
stock manifolds or atr? what is conflicting?
did you get it on the truck or is it theoretical? I hear that ATR headers suck so if someone produced custom headers that were compatible with the R&P setup ( shining a spotlight with a "JS / RPM / E-Rue" symbol into the night - come on guys. what do you think) then there might be a market for this.
Especially as I have seen someone else trying this (mattw) on another thread.
http://www.syty.net/forums/showthread.php?t=16272
fingers crossed!
turbodog
Donating Member
Re: Steering and SUspension upgrades
Stock manifold. I had it completely installed and driving, but the rack was offset toward the drivers side by 1 inch (that'd be 25mm to you:lol: ) because of the interference between the pinion housing and the crossover exhaust coupling. Drove it that way a few days and yanked it all off and reinstalled stock components (except Renz shaft and WA code Camaro steering gear, and everything else brand-new). Now it's about 2k miles after the brand-new stock parts were installed, and some play has developed in the steering. It's either the idler arm going limp already or play in the camaro steering gear.
When (if?) the weather cools off, I' may dive in again.
I'm willing to trade my template for a F-body rack mounting bracket & 'how-to' for a custom driver side header.... anyone? Bueller?
I did buy a spare driver side manifold, hoping I can cut it and somehow reattach a flange (anyone have success in welding a stock cast-iron manifold? ) to move it out of the way.
There is room to do so, because the Camaro rack angles the steering shaft out toward the frame rail (yes, an additional u-joint and rod-end bearing is needed on the steering shaft), resulting in an empty spot next to the manifold "collector" where the stock steering shaft used to be.
Stock manifold. I had it completely installed and driving, but the rack was offset toward the drivers side by 1 inch (that'd be 25mm to you:lol: ) because of the interference between the pinion housing and the crossover exhaust coupling. Drove it that way a few days and yanked it all off and reinstalled stock components (except Renz shaft and WA code Camaro steering gear, and everything else brand-new). Now it's about 2k miles after the brand-new stock parts were installed, and some play has developed in the steering. It's either the idler arm going limp already or play in the camaro steering gear.
When (if?) the weather cools off, I' may dive in again.
I'm willing to trade my template for a F-body rack mounting bracket & 'how-to' for a custom driver side header.... anyone? Bueller?
I did buy a spare driver side manifold, hoping I can cut it and somehow reattach a flange (anyone have success in welding a stock cast-iron manifold? ) to move it out of the way.
There is room to do so, because the Camaro rack angles the steering shaft out toward the frame rail (yes, an additional u-joint and rod-end bearing is needed on the steering shaft), resulting in an empty spot next to the manifold "collector" where the stock steering shaft used to be.
Quickstop [UK]
Combating adversyty.
Re: Steering and SUspension upgrades
when you had it on, how did you like it? Why did you take it off?
I am not sure what you mean when you say that it was offste by 1 inch. I thought that this would mean that you couldn't mount it on the truck? I'm learning lots here....
when you had it on, how did you like it? Why did you take it off?
I am not sure what you mean when you say that it was offste by 1 inch. I thought that this would mean that you couldn't mount it on the truck? I'm learning lots here....
turbodog
Donating Member
Re: Steering and SUspension upgrades
I had way to little steering lock to the right and way too much to the left. I could have hacked off the left side tie rod end to fix the latter, but prefer to wait and get the exhaust out of the way and mount the rack centered properly. Doing so will also improve the steering shaft geometry, which was a very close fit at the driver side frame rail.
How did I like it? I dunno. There was no play to speak of, but I was hardly out autocrossing with a un-tested, highly experimental steering system.
I had way to little steering lock to the right and way too much to the left. I could have hacked off the left side tie rod end to fix the latter, but prefer to wait and get the exhaust out of the way and mount the rack centered properly. Doing so will also improve the steering shaft geometry, which was a very close fit at the driver side frame rail.
How did I like it? I dunno. There was no play to speak of, but I was hardly out autocrossing with a un-tested, highly experimental steering system.
Quickstop [UK]
Combating adversyty.
Re: Steering and SUspension upgrades
what do you think of my suggestion that someone fabs a custom manifold to take this into account? LIke I said, ATR seem a bit dubious.
How much would your setup cost ?
As far as turning circle, I get you now. But in terms of response and handling, how was it?
what do you think of my suggestion that someone fabs a custom manifold to take this into account? LIke I said, ATR seem a bit dubious.
How much would your setup cost ?
As far as turning circle, I get you now. But in terms of response and handling, how was it?
mattw
Active member
Re: Steering and SUspension upgrades
How far apart are the pivot points on this rack? How many turns lock to lock? What kind of steering shaft did you have to fab up? Were you able to mount the rack in a similar location ot the current steering linkage? Did the tie-rod-ends fit our spindles without modificaiton? Did you take any pics of it? Any bump steer?
Thanks,
-Matt
turbodog said:
How far apart are the pivot points on this rack? How many turns lock to lock? What kind of steering shaft did you have to fab up? Were you able to mount the rack in a similar location ot the current steering linkage? Did the tie-rod-ends fit our spindles without modificaiton? Did you take any pics of it? Any bump steer?
Thanks,
-Matt
vinnieTy
TY # 1889
Re: Steering and SUspension upgrades
I went with the PST polygraphite front end kit with bilstein shocks and the zq8 box...WOW i love it. The only thing is the roll i get around a corner i wish i could get that a little stiffer but as of the slop and banging noises from the front end i have no more. I do have a rear sumit racing sway bar that was on the truck when i got it so i dont know if it helps alot or not but i will just need to continue the search to get the roll a little less with out spending the money for coil overs. I guess we will just need to see what happens.
I went with the PST polygraphite front end kit with bilstein shocks and the zq8 box...WOW i love it. The only thing is the roll i get around a corner i wish i could get that a little stiffer but as of the slop and banging noises from the front end i have no more. I do have a rear sumit racing sway bar that was on the truck when i got it so i dont know if it helps alot or not but i will just need to continue the search to get the roll a little less with out spending the money for coil overs. I guess we will just need to see what happens.
turbodog
Donating Member
Re: Steering and Suspension upgrades
Re: Steering and Suspension upgrades
Here's a pic of the rack. Pivot points are about 25 - 26 inches apart. I laid it on top of the stock centerlink/tie rod assy and the match was very close.
Here's a sketch I made of the steering shaft components:
http://users2.ev1.net/~nolanclan/R&P%20steering.jpg
and a more 'to scale' drawing I did on AutoCAD at maximum u-joint deflection angles
Tie rods were at almost exact same location as stock (where else would they be? there is only one place under there with a clear shot from one side of the truck to the other! - J/K... sort of...)
IIRC it is 2.5 turns lock-tolock
Tie rod ends fit our spindles (same taper, but they are longer, so I had 2 washers between the crown nut and the knuckle). I shortened each tie rod about 1.25 inches, and then extended the threads inboard to regain adequate thread contact area (THAT was fun... not!).
And, I hope everyone realizes that there is a fair amount of grinder work involved. The stock steering damper mounting ears have to come off, the crossmember gets some attention to make clearance for the pressure tubes on the rack, etc.
I did not drive it enough to really characterize it, other than I felt the whole steering lock problem was too much to live with. I also did a coilover conversion at the same time. AND, when I put the all-new stock steering on (with Renz shaft), THAT felt pretty damn tight. So, too much was going on to pass a definitive judgement.
Re: Steering and Suspension upgrades
Here's a pic of the rack. Pivot points are about 25 - 26 inches apart. I laid it on top of the stock centerlink/tie rod assy and the match was very close.
Here's a sketch I made of the steering shaft components:
http://users2.ev1.net/~nolanclan/R&P%20steering.jpg
and a more 'to scale' drawing I did on AutoCAD at maximum u-joint deflection angles
Tie rods were at almost exact same location as stock (where else would they be? there is only one place under there with a clear shot from one side of the truck to the other! - J/K... sort of...)
IIRC it is 2.5 turns lock-tolock
Tie rod ends fit our spindles (same taper, but they are longer, so I had 2 washers between the crown nut and the knuckle). I shortened each tie rod about 1.25 inches, and then extended the threads inboard to regain adequate thread contact area (THAT was fun... not!).
And, I hope everyone realizes that there is a fair amount of grinder work involved. The stock steering damper mounting ears have to come off, the crossmember gets some attention to make clearance for the pressure tubes on the rack, etc.
I did not drive it enough to really characterize it, other than I felt the whole steering lock problem was too much to live with. I also did a coilover conversion at the same time. AND, when I put the all-new stock steering on (with Renz shaft), THAT felt pretty damn tight. So, too much was going on to pass a definitive judgement.
Quickstop [UK]
Combating adversyty.
Re: Steering and SUspension upgrades
could you see issues with the coilover and the setup you had on?
One thing I forgot to ask about was an adjustable sway bar which adam mentioned. Has anyone got any info on these?
Thanks again!
Mark
could you see issues with the coilover and the setup you had on?
One thing I forgot to ask about was an adjustable sway bar which adam mentioned. Has anyone got any info on these?
Thanks again!
Mark
turbodog
Donating Member
Re: Steering and SUspension upgrades
Well, it has been documented elsewhere on the site that the combination of the coilover tubular a-arms and CBR's F-body front brake kit (oh, did I mention that I did THAT at the same time as well?) causes a loss of steering lock/increased turning radius. So, some grinding is required to overcome that. But, problems specific to the R&P and coilover combo? None.
Well, it has been documented elsewhere on the site that the combination of the coilover tubular a-arms and CBR's F-body front brake kit (oh, did I mention that I did THAT at the same time as well?) causes a loss of steering lock/increased turning radius. So, some grinding is required to overcome that. But, problems specific to the R&P and coilover combo? None.
mattw
Active member
Re: Steering and SUspension upgrades
Thanks for all of the R & P info.. When I asked if you repositioned it any from where the steering linkage was I was mostly just asking if you had to move it forward any.. I would imaging that the neck of the rack and the steering shaft were very close to the frame near the motor mount and the upper mount for the front diff. How wide did the rack end up needing to be tie rod bolt to tie rod bolt? Also do you know how much travel this rack provides side to side?
Thanks,
-Matt
Thanks for all of the R & P info.. When I asked if you repositioned it any from where the steering linkage was I was mostly just asking if you had to move it forward any.. I would imaging that the neck of the rack and the steering shaft were very close to the frame near the motor mount and the upper mount for the front diff. How wide did the rack end up needing to be tie rod bolt to tie rod bolt? Also do you know how much travel this rack provides side to side?
Thanks,
-Matt
turbodog
Donating Member
Re: Steering and SUspension upgrades
Not sure I understand the question, but..
I positioned the rack to be as close as possible to the original centerlink location. I then addressed interference with the front pumpkin mount by rotating the rack so that the input shaft is pointing straight up when viewed from the tie rod end (and angled toward the frame rail when viewed from the drivers seat). Getting this rotation just right is the crux of the biscuit. I had the rack hung in position with about a dozen heavy duty zip ties, adjusting and measuring (and pulling it all out and grinding off interfering stuff then starting over) to get it just right (well, except for that 1 inch offset). I then made a cardboard template of the mounting bracket needed, and determined the angle that the mounting 'ears' needed to be to achieve the magic rotation angle. Then a local race shop fabbed it for me. He did a good job of duplicating my critical angle. The rack was within a few millimeters of where I wanted it when everything was torqued up tight., and clear of the diff mount as well.
Sorry, don't have the steering travel for the rack handy. I think it was 5.5 inches.
mattw said:
Not sure I understand the question, but..
I positioned the rack to be as close as possible to the original centerlink location. I then addressed interference with the front pumpkin mount by rotating the rack so that the input shaft is pointing straight up when viewed from the tie rod end (and angled toward the frame rail when viewed from the drivers seat). Getting this rotation just right is the crux of the biscuit. I had the rack hung in position with about a dozen heavy duty zip ties, adjusting and measuring (and pulling it all out and grinding off interfering stuff then starting over) to get it just right (well, except for that 1 inch offset). I then made a cardboard template of the mounting bracket needed, and determined the angle that the mounting 'ears' needed to be to achieve the magic rotation angle. Then a local race shop fabbed it for me. He did a good job of duplicating my critical angle. The rack was within a few millimeters of where I wanted it when everything was torqued up tight., and clear of the diff mount as well.
Sorry, don't have the steering travel for the rack handy. I think it was 5.5 inches.
Last edited:
mattw
Active member
Re: Steering and SUspension upgrades
I did some test fitting with the Explorer rack this weekend.. In order to get it in there and clear the front diff upper mount I had to position it ~2" further forward than the stock steering linkage. I was able to achieve the same height but could't get far enough back to match the stock setup. Did you run into this with the F-body rack?
-Matt
turbodog said:
I did some test fitting with the Explorer rack this weekend.. In order to get it in there and clear the front diff upper mount I had to position it ~2" further forward than the stock steering linkage. I was able to achieve the same height but could't get far enough back to match the stock setup. Did you run into this with the F-body rack?
-Matt
turbodog
Donating Member
Re: Steering and SUspension upgrades
No. I did some grinding on the diff mount, but did not have to postion the rack that far forward. If you look at the bracket photo, imagine that bolted to the aft, flat face of the crossmember (where the steering damper mount used to be). The rack was behind the crossmember, and the only grinding on the crossmember needed was to provide clearance for the pressure tubes running along the rack tube.
No. I did some grinding on the diff mount, but did not have to postion the rack that far forward. If you look at the bracket photo, imagine that bolted to the aft, flat face of the crossmember (where the steering damper mount used to be). The rack was behind the crossmember, and the only grinding on the crossmember needed was to provide clearance for the pressure tubes running along the rack tube.
mattw
Active member
Re: Steering and SUspension upgrades
Did you take any measurements from this angle:
The stock setup came out right around 4-3/4" and this is about 2-3/4".. One thing to note is that at full lock the stock bar moves forward to almost exactly this position. I also made some modifications to the upper front diff mount but I just don't see how I can get this rack to go back any further:
I actually cut a good 1-1/2" off of that upper mount pad.. I plan to re-inforce it from the back at some later point.. Did the neck of your rack come up in about the same location?
Thanks for all of the info you have shared..
-Matt
turbodog said:
Did you take any measurements from this angle:
The stock setup came out right around 4-3/4" and this is about 2-3/4".. One thing to note is that at full lock the stock bar moves forward to almost exactly this position. I also made some modifications to the upper front diff mount but I just don't see how I can get this rack to go back any further:
I actually cut a good 1-1/2" off of that upper mount pad.. I plan to re-inforce it from the back at some later point.. Did the neck of your rack come up in about the same location?
Thanks for all of the info you have shared..
-Matt
turbodog
Donating Member
Re: Steering and SUspension upgrades
IIRC the dimension I was using (as in top photo) was 4 inches. Have to dig out my sketches, may not be till next weekend. I tend to agree the impact should be minimal.
Sure would have been nice to mock it up on a bare frame like that. On the other hand, I would not have known about the exhaust interference until after I had a lot of work invested.
IIRC the dimension I was using (as in top photo) was 4 inches. Have to dig out my sketches, may not be till next weekend. I tend to agree the impact should be minimal.
Sure would have been nice to mock it up on a bare frame like that. On the other hand, I would not have known about the exhaust interference until after I had a lot of work invested.