Super Servo? Cooler size? Other tranny stuff?

[InvisiBill]

I'm taking my chances with having a local guy rebuild my tranny. I talked to him, and he seems to know 700R4's, and I explained that these things have eaten "bulletproof" trannies in no time flat, and he didn't seem to mind. He mentioned the Super Servo being one step above the Vette servo. Is this something I want on my stock truck (which is going to stay quite close to stock)? Will it be too much?

While I'm there, is there anything else I should do? Are there any deep pans that require NO mods of any kind, and just work right? If I completely bypass the stock radiator, how big a tranny cooler do I need? How much space around it do I need? Looking at some non-standard mounting locations...

 

[Hu Ryde]

Has he already started yet? If not get these:

1 8685043 3-4 ring $13.80 GM
1 8685044 3-4 plate $9.84 GM

They are a stronger ring and plate.

Tell him to use a 29 element sprag, New! Sometimes if they look good they will reuse them. The 29 is also a upgrade from the stock 25. See if he will do the updates in the ASTG manual.

Check this out.

http://www.huryde.com/html/Tech/mofotranny.htm

I did have the Super Servo but the thing locked up and left me without 4th, also happened to George. We both went back to stock. Maybe this builder has Vodo magic and can get them to work. Good luck.

 

[Loeryder]

For a Pan DeRale makes nice over-sized unit with cooling tubes built into it, you can also use stock tranny filters that do not require a goofy adapter than can malfunction.
DeRale #14104, got mine at Jegs or Summit, pretty cheap both places.
Also look at an external aux filter, they give you a good spot to tap the Temp Cooling sender if you're planning on running one.

Cooler size depends on how hectic you're getting.
9/11s run hot and need more cooler. Stock system is marginal but still needs a small add on cooler.

Alternative locations, under the bed or behind the bumper with fans, look into a motorcycle radiator with fans on it already.

4 days and counting

 

[InvisiBill]

Has he already started yet? If not get these:

1 8685043 3-4 ring $13.80 GM
1 8685044 3-4 plate $9.84 GM

They are a stronger ring and plate.

Tell him to use a 29 element sprag, New! Sometimes if they look good they will reuse them. The 29 is also a upgrade from the stock 25. See if he will do the updates in the ASTG manual.

Check this out.

http://www.huryde.com/html/Tech/mofotranny.htm

I did have the Super Servo but the thing locked up and left me without 4th, also happened to George. We both went back to stock. Maybe this builder has Vodo magic and can get them to work. Good luck.

He said that he always uses a double-race sprag on these, and basically GM should've done that at the factory instead of the weak one they do use. Is that what you mean? My sprag is what went, so it will definitely be replaced. Are the ring and plate fairly common, or is that something that you have to know about? He mentioned some heavy duty stuff that he puts in all the "performance" trannies he does... He also said that since it's a 91, there are 11 updates to do on it in addition to actually rebuilding it. I assume that's what you're referring to.

For a Pan DeRale makes nice over-sized unit with cooling tubes built into it, you can also use stock tranny filters that do not require a goofy adapter than can malfunction.
DeRale #14104, got mine at Jegs or Summit, pretty cheap both places.
Also look at an external aux filter, they give you a good spot to tap the Temp Cooling sender if you're planning on running one.

Cooler size depends on how hectic you're getting.
9/11s run hot and need more cooler. Stock system is marginal but still needs a small add on cooler.

Alternative locations, under the bed or behind the bumper with fans, look into a motorcycle radiator with fans on it already.

4 days and counting

Do I need to tweak the pan, housing, or shift bracket or anything for that pan? I'd really like something that I could just literally bolt in place of the stock pan. Are the "cooling tubes" just airflow passages built-in to the pan? Could I mount the temp sender in the pan, or is it better on the remote filter?

I know the stock system is marginal, which is why I'm going to add a cooler. However, I'd like to bypass the stock cooler, and don't want to just create another marginal cooler somewhere else. I'm looking at an idea under the bed that I adapted from an F-body friend... I'm looking at http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=2845 which says it has female 1/2" NPT fittings, but not installation components. What else would I need to actually install that?

 

[Falco]

Yep. Add a tranny oil temp gauge too. I know this one was talked over a few times, but what tempreature levels are acceptable at the outside line before the coolers? I can see 150's these days with 90+ ambient, and seen 170 a few times. I'm sporting a Derale and the smaller B$M cooler in serial with the stock cooler. Does this sound right? Gonna go to a larger cooler and loop out the stock cooler because my guess that it's rather heating thean cooling...

Later,

 

[Blake]

Here's the apply plate Jesse is talking about:

On the right, 2nd one down. Much stronger than the stocker, helps keep the legs from bending on the apply ring.

Look in the middle column. It looks like a crown. If you flip it over, it should have a number 7 on it. This means it has shorter legs so you use the thicker steels of the setup in the previous picture or the 9 clutch red eagle friction from alto.
If you have your original tranny, it will probably be a #4. These have longer legs. More prone to bend out and you can't stack as many clutches/steels and you can't use the thicker steels if you want to go that route.
Get one of these bands:

The hole where the anchor pin goes is reinforced and the little ridge where the apply pin pushes on it has a material inside it to reinforce it to keep it from bending under pressure from the apply pin.
The red material has a slightly better coefficient of friction. The kevlar handles heat better and will tolerate any slippage better(it will live if the band ever slips during a hard 1-2).
Use a .500 TV boost valve or the .577" TV boost valve from Brian Hartman. If you go with the .577" you will not need the super servo. It will hit hard enough. Believe me.
Use this orange spring in your 1-2 accumulator:

It will eliminate the needs for all the flipping and blocking stuff.
The along with the improved sprag Jesse talked about will help it live longer and shift firmer.
Make sure when you get your truck back that the fluid is full when up to temperature and that the TV cable is correctly adjusted so it shifts right.
These are just some of the ideas that worked for me. What you use is up to you and your tranny builder. See what kind of warranty he gives. He may be more leanient and give you a better warranty if you go with a full size converter. Just depends on what you want and what he is willing to do.

One more thing. If you go with the Sonnax dual servo for your 4th apply:

Do NOT use the Fairbanks unit, they will hang up on the apply pin. Have the tranny shop (don't cringe) dent the floor pan away from the area where this baby sticks out about 1/2". There have been several instances where the tranny rocked during the shifts and the servo hits the floor. This can punch the apply pin through the band or burn up the band depending on how it strikes the floor. There are some pictures of trannies with this installed. It is a beautiful piece but the tunnel in our trucks just doesn't have enough room for it.
(these are just opinions, everybody's got one)
Sorry so long, I tried to leave out the FLUFF/BS.
HTH,
Blake

 

[Blake]

Bill,
See if you can get some info on the sprag(where he gets it, etc). Hartman sells a raybestos mechanical diode(not made anymore and may only be sold in kits). I'd really like to know if your builder has some special sprag that the rest of us don't know about If he's doing all of that other stuff, he may already know about the above but talk with him about it anyway. You may feel more comfortable after you do. Please get back with us on the sprag.
Thanks,
Blake

 

[InvisiBill]

I really know next to nothing about this stuff. I'm just trying to learn as I go. Just enough to make sure my tranny doesn't get screwed up for now... Is there more than one sprag in the tranny, or multiple parts that could go by that name? He said that he always puts the double-race sprag in 700R4's, and that's what most of their problems are (i.e. it shouldn't do it again). What's a mechanical diode? I know what an electrical diode is, and I've heard the term before, but I have no idea what it actually is.

He has a 90 day warranty on it. If it doesn't work right, he'll make it work right. After that, I pay only for parts for the first year. His only condition is to drive it gently for a few days to give it a few heat cycles for stuff to set up. He said people have a tendency to want to drive it from the shop to the track and start beating on it...

Would a stock, daily-driver truck benefit from a different converter, without any negative impacts?

Falco: "Yep" what? I've heard that you should get out of it for anything over 200. I think someone said that was Hartman's verdict...

 

[Blake]

Do NOT bypass the stock tranny cooler. The transmission has to be heated to a certain point to boil off moisture that will condense in the tranny fluid (forming acids)but it can run so hot as to damage/harden other parts. Mount a cooler after the stock cooler. This way fluid can be heated like it is supposed to and then be cooled. The fluid is gonna be relatively hot as it is because it has just left the TC and is on its way to be cooled. In cool climates you want the stock cooler so it can be heated to operating temp quicker. Hartman made a statement that the stock cooler(liquid to liquid) is 14x more efficient than an air to liquid type. Definitely keep your stocker. Just make sure they flush it.

http://www.dreamscapedesign.com/raybestos.html

Here's a link to what this company did to advertise the mechanical diode for raybestos. I called Raybestos and they don't make them anymore.
There are two sprags in your tranny.
One(the most common to break)is in the input drum down with the overrun clutches. The other is the low roller sprag. It is down in the case itself.

You can go with a stock(2100rpm) to 2800 stall, seems to be the general concensus. Just remember the additional heat that will be built up with the higher stall. The higher the stall, the more "slippage" until engagement. Just have to be aware of the tradeoffs. The TCS 9/11 has a normal sized 11" clutch from a 12" converter but then only a 9" pump(inside the converter). This reduces reciprocating mass but runs hotter. You don't HAVE to have a 9/11 to get the greater stall. It is just another way of achieving it.
Look here for the low down on normal converters.
http://www.howstuffworks.com/torque-converter.htm
http://static.howstuffworks.com/mpeg/torque.mpg
The one in the video does not have a lockup clutch but does explain the different parts and there jobs well.

Next time you talk to the builder, see if he will tell you a part # and where to purchase the performance sprag he's got. I'd like to put it in the website if it is different than the ones we already have a little experience with.
Thanks again,
Blake

 

[InvisiBill]

By no means am I an expert on this stuff, so what I say could be totally wrong. I'm going mostly on theory here (and we all know that there's a severe lack of theory in the real world). The tranny guy said that you could get up to like 300*F in just a matter of seconds while powerbraking. This leads me to believe that getting the tranny to heat up would not be a problem... As for the liquid/liquid heat transfer, you're talking only about dumping the tranny's heat into the engine coolant. From there, it would still have to be transferred from the liquid to the air. This tranny guy said that I SHOULD bypass the stock cooler, so as to keep the heat from the two things separate. If the two coolers were together (like stock), then basically the cooler one will heat up to the average temp and the hotter one would cool down to the average temp. That's just simple physics, though I can't say anything about whether or not you want to add heat to it. If the tranny cooler were under the bed, it would also keep that amount of heat completely away from the engine bay as well.

I'll check with him on the sprag he's talking about.

 

[InvisiBill]

Found http://www.transmissioncenter.net/HP_Price list.htm#GM Performance Parts. He was showing me where the sun gear shell breaks at the neck, and that he uses the heavier duty one like that...

So long as he uses high quality parts to rebuild it, am I likely to avoid blowing this thing up when I get it back? I know others have said that SyTy's eat even "bulletproof" stuff like it's nothing, but it doesn't seem to me that it could be too hard to rebuild it to at least stock level using good components...

 

[Falco]

By no means am I an expert on this stuff, so what I say could be totally wrong. I'm going mostly on theory here (and we all know that there's a severe lack of theory in the real world). The tranny guy said that you could get up to like 300*F in just a matter of seconds while powerbraking. This leads me to believe that getting the tranny to heat up would not be a problem... As for the liquid/liquid heat transfer, you're talking only about dumping the tranny's heat into the engine coolant. From there, it would still have to be transferred from the liquid to the air. This tranny guy said that I SHOULD bypass the stock cooler, so as to keep the heat from the two things separate. If the two coolers were together (like stock), then basically the cooler one will heat up to the average temp and the hotter one would cool down to the average temp. That's just simple physics, though I can't say anything about whether or not you want to add heat to it. If the tranny cooler were under the bed, it would also keep that amount of heat completely away from the engine bay as well.

Bill,

I agree. I watched the tranny's oil temperature rising while power braking a few times. At a 5-8 psi launch it could rise 40F, like from 130F to 170F, but I couldn't make more heat than that even with three 1/8th mile run in 10 minutes at the track. So 300F will burb your tranny for sure. I would say that anything above 200F is really bad. What I'm looking for is the optimum operating temp. I agree with Blake that running it under the optimum temp doesn't do any good. However I don't think that you need two coolers to be able to get the optimum temp. You can do it with one, if it's properly sized for your very own truck.

Later,

 

[Blake]

Like I said they're opinions. If you're wanting someone to tell you its ok to mount your cooler under the bed that cool. Lots of guys do it.
But the theory on cooking your converter while your powerbraking and CYCLING the tranny through the normal heat cycle are different. One will do damage. The other actually heats the whole tranny so moisture boils off through the vent in the top of the tranny. When I say boil, I don't mean 212F. Remember that when under pressure, water boils at a higher temp so you can get it out of your tranny without cooking the tranny. That wasn't the point. Do what your tranny guy tells you(it's his warranty)since it goes along with what you want to do anyway=mount the cooler under the bed. Jesse did his that way and has some pics around here. Not sure what you wanted by asking about it. The thing about dumping the heat from the tranny fluid to the coolant is well.....it takes the heat out of the tranny fluid. That was what it was supposed to do. Not sure what you are getting at. Our radiators where meant to take care of this. (unless you run electric fans or something). I run a 160 thermostat so heats not an issue. If you look at aftermarket coolers, the instructions will tell you a preferred method-both of them in series. If you look around on the internet on discussion boards, it'll be the same. The theory isn't really just a theory, that's the way it works. Sounds like your set on what you wanted to do. You'll do ok, don't worry about it. It's not like your trans guy is gonna go out and buy parts because you saw it on here. He will do it in a manner he is comfortable with. If he likes the super servo, that is what your gonna have in it. He'll take care of ya. It's not like he wants to work on it over and over anyway. What kind of converter have you bought?
I'd really would appreciate any info on the sprag.
Sorry I mistook what kind of help you were asking for. Still not sure what you wanted.... :roll:
Maybe someone else will benefit from the info here.
Blake
You'll be fine. It's not like your gonna hurt it. Whatever you do, stick to the basics, TV adjustment proper and maintain the proper fluid level and don't power brake it at every stop light.
Forgot to add this: the fluid leaving the TC is probably the hottest. This is what goes directly to the cooler. So the converter shouldn't cook the tranny if your cooling is what it should be unless the TC has some internal problem. That is different.

 

[TyGuyJeff]

I'm pretty sure you can go to a 1 and 1/2" cooler and be able to bypass the system and cool it much more sufficiently. However, a previous post about keeping the radiator warm could stand in your way. I do know a 10 sec GN owner who bypasses the radiator and made a cool setup using 2 coolers. My advice would be to run the stock radiator cooler, and the big 'ol cooler and nver have to worry about it again.

 

[InvisiBill]

Blake: I know very little about this stuff. I just know how much I've heard about "regular" tranny guys making "awesome 400000000hp" trannies that don't last a week in these things. I explained to the guy that these weren't regular 700R4s, and he knew about a lot of the stuff, like Super Servos and drilling the hole in the valve body (I think that's right) and stuff like that. He'll do whatever I tell him to, within reason. I want to make sure he does the SyTy-specific stuff right, but I don't really understand it, so I'm just sort of relaying this stuff to him.

I really don't trust anything anyone says until they prove it. I know there are tons of "experts" out there who have no idea what they're talking about. I'd like to mount a cooler out of the way under the bed, and not have to mess with the front cooler at all. Like I said, that might even keep the engine bay temps down. But if it's going to kill my tranny, I won't do it. I just don't know what I can and can't do, so I'm trying to learn. What I wanted to know is if using only an aux cooler would keep the tranny too cold, and do damage to it... Does it just not heat up as quickly? Or would it never get hot enough to boil off the condensation?

I've seen the comment about water being 14x as efficient a few places before, but in the end it still comes down to actually transferring the heat out of the liquid into the air. You're 14x as efficient dumping the tranny's heat into the engine coolant. Which is just as efficient as the tranny cooler transferring it to the air in the first place. And with the two together, they're going to average out to the middle temp. It sounds like they would probably be pretty close anyway, so that might not even matter.

I don't have any parts. I'm having my local mechanic pull it and send it to the tranny guy. I told him to basically rebuild it just like it is, with the obvious weak spots (like the single sprag thing he mentioned) upgraded. Do we need a special converter? His rebuild price includes a "regular" one, if there's really any difference. He mentioned a few brands. One he's had a few problems with, the other he hasn't, so he gets those ones. He said he could get the stall speed off the tag if the original is in there (should be), or he could put something else in there if I wanted.

 

[Falco]

Bill,



Sorry, the yep was for the good advices in the previous posts.

Blake,

These were very good posts, sure I saved this thread. Keep up these kind of advices.

Later,

 

[Brian Hartman]

I quickly scanned the advice. Good advice all the way through. The Double caged race is the BG 29 element sprag. Been out for a awhile now. Good unit. I use it sometimes. I do some stuff but all in all it is solid.

Fluid temps are important. When your Tranny guy says the fluid gets to 300ºF, He's right but it gets even hotter than that for flashes. Depending on the fluid, it will start breaking down at around 220º and it goes downhill fast. That's why the Lubeguard is so important. Helps condition the valves so the fluid doesn't basically varnish them. Meaning, coating the valve with a thin gummy film than gets worse and worse. Turns into a kind of Tranny fly paper device to help catch all those unwanted particles, (metal shavings, clutch grit and if you are extra lucky, planetary teeth :wink: ) Besides the complete melt down of shooting gear matter through your VB, the other stuff will embed into the gum and cause the valve to stroke less and less until it becomes critical where the shift if semi working causing slippage or bindage. Both suck and create a lot more particles to jam everything up. That's why a tranny will nose down sometimes really fast. If you have cooling and are still running a bit hot, I'd get some Redline ATF in there and work on some additional cooling. The Derale pan is good but the TCI pan is really nice for added cooling because it is thick aluminum and deep. One additional benefit is that the pan is ultra ridged so it will help with trans case integrity.

I gotta go get some stuff, I just thought I'd commit on the thread thus far.

I'm away from home for a couple of weeks so please E-mail me at BOTH e-mail address to increase my chance of helping if you need any help. Mail boxes get filled before I know it so please try again if it get's rejected.

Take care everyone,

 

[mrweelr]

My tranny and converter are stock with 54K original miles and still working perfectly. I'm using Mobil 1 ATF, Derale deep pan, B&M front-mount cooler etc. What's this "Lube Guard" stuff and would I benefit from it?

Thanks

 

[Brian Hartman]

Quicky...

Lubeguard (Red bottle) is a very nice lubricant the is currently the best synthetically produced whale blubber. Whale blubber is one of the best lubricants in the world but at the expense of their lives.

So, it's a detergent to help clean the valves and is a friction modifier to help with TC shudder sometimes. It is most importantly a metal to metal lube for the VB and pump surfaces. It is ALWAYS a good idea to use it.

I'm outta here for a while, good luck.


oh yeah, get the Lubeguard at NAPA if you don't have any other place to get it at a good price.

 

[Blake]

Bill,
I don't know if this will help make you any more confident about your situation, but from what I am starting to read on these mega horsepower trannies is that these poor people are getting junkyard 200K mile trannies that have been rebuilt instead of remanufactured. Bad parts being reused, like pre 87 parts being mixed with post 88 parts and what have you.
When the local tranny shop(Middletown Transmission), opened mine up, they called me and IMMEDIATELY asked how much money I had in the tranny. When I told him, he wanted me to come in. The owner had all the younger guys in the shop get around the tranny(in the floor next to the lift my Ty was suspended on)and had me explain the benefits of every part I had replaced with a beefed up replacement part. It took about 1/2 hour but it was well worth it. The thing he was most impressed with was the mechanical diode and the hardened stator. He had never seen anyone build up a 700 with all the parts. He said usually people go to the 400s or 350s. He asked me later if I would do custom 700s. Don't know if I will do it or not. I did get a lifetime warranty out of the tranny though. Covers everything but the towing. I have AAA for that.
They let me pop in whenever I wanted to.
See if the shop will let you come in and poke around while they are working on it. Let them show you the old parts.
When I did mine several months ago, I had to replace my input drum because of SIGNIFICANT wear. It wasn't broken. It was just flat worn out. Probably from me driving it for so long with my overrun clutch piston seal blown off.
Most shops just don't replace hard parts unless they are broken. Others don't take the time to get your clearances just right. Stuff like Putting the wrong reverse input drum on with the wrong stator or input drum(using the wrong input drum will also keep a torque conveter from sliding on like it is supposed to). Others do stupid mistakes like installing valves in the wrong order. These are the things that make trannies fail. It took me over 24 hours solid to redo my tranny because I did everything and double checked everything. Air checks for leaks(servo, input drum, etc). I also did mockups of the input drum stacks without the sprage(diode)to make sure I had good overrun clutch movt with everything else installed. Just to double check. The local shops go through them in less than 4 hours.
They don't do this stuff. All it takes is one screwup. That is why they fail(aside from just stupid ass abuse)nothing can help that.
Now your guy isn't gonna do all this stuff either, but if you know he is redoing your old tranny(not giving you another one)and he will show you your old parts and not mind you popping in every now and then, then you can be confident that he is not gonna screw you.

If you are staying stock, your stock converter is rated at 2075 rpm. There are towing models readily available at 2300 stall he will be able to get with no wait. Will be the same price. Just make sure they get you a lock up unit. I'm sure they will.
something on mounting an external cooler under the bed. Jesse's tranny never gets over 140 degrees with his. You may want to give him a shout for more info on the setup you are doing. You may like what he has done. He runs a 9/11 also. You may want to get a slightly smaller unit than what he has, JUST BE MINDFUL OF THE REAR DIFFERENTIAL. It will come up under a hard launch and smash your cooler if it is too far back or not far enough.
Your truck will be fine. Remember. Most of the stuff you hear about from people will be BAD. People don't complain when they are happy with a service. Also if they do have something fail, you will never hear what they did to break it. It will just be broken, no reason. Yeah right. One guy on here finally said, he had his truck in park, ran the rpms up, realized he had it in park and slammed it into drive before the engine rpms came down and BAM. That was owner induced failure. Don't let a story from these people make you paranoid about your build. Something I would highly recommend is replacing the TV cable. Just extra insurance. Only $25 thereabouts.
Blake