a2a OR w2a

[Maverick87]

Re: a2a OR w2a

a2w or a2a doesnt make any differance without adding an extra souce of cooling other than the air outside you will not get below ambient.

 

[BVM]

Re: a2a OR w2a

a2w or a2a doesnt make any differance without adding an extra souce of cooling other than the air outside you will not get below ambient.

Not true. :banghead:

 

[Maverick87]

Re: a2a OR w2a

So you have figured out to cheat newton? Even if the heat exchanger was 100% efficent(none of them are) you still COULD NOT get below anbient without adding ice or spraying something onto the heat exchanger.

 

[Quickstop [UK]]

Re: a2a OR w2a

sorry but I disagree. I could be wrong and I am interested to have this explained.

How can you make something cooler than its surroundings unless you shift the heat somewhere else?

For that you would need a secondary cooling system, or use the wind chill effect of evaporating water to cool below IAT.

I would like to know how that works

Are you saying that moisture in the air going through the cooling system radiatorcan cool below IAT while moving presumably quite fast?

Please explain.

 

[BVM]

Re: a2a OR w2a

So you have figured out to cheat newton? Even if the heat exchanger was 100% efficent(none of them are) you still COULD NOT get below anbient without adding ice or spraying something onto the heat exchanger.

Do a little research and you will find out for your self. Also if you read in this very same thread, I mentioned the use of an intercooler water spray system like the EVO and STi use. Water evaporating on the heat exchanger results in some pretty impressive cooling. Its the same reason water injection is so popular in forced induction engines.

Also the air moving over the heat exchanger with any moisture in the air can result in lower than ambient temps. Ever see ice form on your air conditioning condenser? Ever step out on a cold windy day? Ever notice while driving your windshield will start to ice over in the winter if you don't have the defog on?

Trying to explain something to someone with an attitude or with 'blinders' on is useless. I have provided the information people can believe what they want. I have been around long enough not to get dragged into an internet pissing contest. That was never my intent or desire.

 

[Quickstop [UK]]

Re: a2a OR w2a

ahh...windchill

Clever!

 

[Black Knight]

Re: a2a OR w2a

Come on guys, lets keep this going on a positive note, I like all the inforamtion that is being presented and don't want this to turn into a pissing match and get locked, please!!

 

[Quickstop [UK]]

Re: a2a OR w2a

Just spoke to BVM on the phone - cool guy

 

[dgoodhue]

Re: a2a OR w2a

Back to original poster.

If you using the stock turbo its usually easier to use the stock W2A. In order ot use an A2A you need to reclock the turbo (split the turbo from the exhuast housing & remove the alignment pin) and make a waste gate bracket for the reclocked postion.

If you using Vortec heads & aftermarket turbo, some of the vortec valve cover don't work with the stock IC brackets & they have a funny turbo to IC hose connections.

 

[sy2675]

Re: a2a OR w2a

Back to original poster.

If you using the stock turbo its usually easier to use the stock W2A. In order ot use an A2A you need to reclock the turbo (split the turbo from the exhuast housing & remove the alignment pin) and make a waste gate bracket for the reclocked postion.

If you using Vortec heads & aftermarket turbo, some of the vortec valve cover don't work with the stock IC brackets & they have a funny turbo to IC hose connections.

Stock heads, pte52 turbo, internal WGate

 

[ghettosled]

Re: a2a OR w2a

For SYTY's you cant beat an a/a for the street. Plain and simple.

Most oem manufactors choose a/w b/c 1)it is more compact, 2) not exposed to the elements and road debris and 3) will pass emissions easier.

If you had an endless supply of cool water (say a supercharged boat with a superchiller), or an ice chest large enough to supply cool water for the entire day of driving, then it would outperform the a/a but you dont.

All of these so called tests claiming an a/l intercooler setup can retain cooler iac temps on the street are BS. They are not real word. Drive a truck 45 minutes to the track, pull up to the line without popping the hood or icing down the intercooler, take a iac measurement before, then at the end of the run. The outlet temp from the a/a will be cooler then the a/l.

Now if you really want to further prove this point, drive straight back to the line and do the same thing again. An a/l intercooler will heat up and have a hard time quickly returning to ambient temps without help (ice, fresh water, etc). The a/a o the other hand will be rapidly cooling down from the fresh air that is being passed though it.

In order to achieve anything lower then ambient air in either case you will need alcohol or ice mixed into the equation.

My suggestion would be a/a. no pumps to fail, no jets to clog, no lines to get in the way, no water to leak, and it works not just the first time you get on the truck, but 30 seconds later, a minutre later, and hour later.. After your foundation has been laid, you can then introduce alky injection, nitrous etc. That way it is easier to cool 100 deg to 50 degrees then it is to cool 150 degrees to 50 deg.

 

[It's just a six]

Re: a2a OR w2a

http://www.decolabs.com/product_info.php?cPath=38&products_id=68

 

[Flyin Ryan]

Re: a2a OR w2a

http://www.decolabs.com/product_info.php?cPath=38&products_id=68

talk about adding weight or worrying about shit failing/leaking why not get the same effect with a meth kit?

 

[James Thomas]

Re: a2a OR w2a

Well it appears that we have an offical impass :banghead: . So I will agree to disagree (all points taken and noted) on the A2A being better from an engineering standpoint and professional experience with boosted engines both street driveable on up to T.A.D. / Nitro and U.S. military heat exchange systems. There are pro and con arguments to both systems from practical and engineering stand points. I have my opinions, others have theirs :dunno: . I have done my builds and tests (informal and otherwise) and have my ideas of what works for me and what I want / expect. This however may not work for you or others just as your set up may not work for me.

This is however a proven and totally undisputable fact: Water / liquid is more efficent than air... period. I'm not going to attempt to justify or explain it because it appears that some folks here are prone to off hand comments and others have there mind set regardless. So here is what I will say, SEARCH SEARCH SEARCH the tech and engineering sites (I say that very seldom on this this board) or..... build YOUR combo with A2A and drive it around on the street for several years and make changes as you think required, while logging readings on the street and at the track so you know what is better and what's not, then change over to A2W and do the same thing on the same build with no other changes and see what YOU think is best for YOU... or take an engineering course (not my advise :tdown: , building the combo and flogging the crap out of it is a lot more fun!).

We build engines and vehicles, not I/C's. I will sell you what you tell me you want or what I recommend if you want to take that recomendation. As a general "blanket statment", I recommend A2W for as many reasons as others recommend A2A. It is just like every thing else in the performance world (and women for that matter)........... everyone has there idea of what is best for them and their reasons why. BTW I prefer Asian or Filapina :rock: ! Point is to bring ideas to the group and get new ideas based in info / opinions shared to help make us faster, better and more reliable than the "other guys", we hope.

Disclaimer: The above is my :2cents: (prolly all it's worth!), read the fine print, consult your attorney, Common Wealth Law Rules, the Magnuson Moss Warranty Act does not, use at your own risk, do not use longer than three (3) days and consult your physican if symptoms persist :blah:


______________
James

 

[BVM]

Re: a2a OR w2a

All of these so called tests claiming an a/l intercooler setup can retain cooler iac temps on the street are BS. They are not real word. Drive a truck 45 minutes to the track, pull up to the line without popping the hood or icing down the intercooler, take a iac measurement before, then at the end of the run. The outlet temp from the a/a will be cooler then the a/l.

Now if you really want to further prove this point, drive straight back to the line and do the same thing again. An a/l intercooler will heat up and have a hard time quickly returning to ambient temps without help (ice, fresh water, etc). The a/a o the other hand will be rapidly cooling down from the fresh air that is being passed though it.

.

*I had a really detailed response but my Laptop went wacky and I cant be bothered to type that all out again*

If you datalog your IAT's during your 45min mixed condition drive, you will find the temps will be more consistent with W2A. More consistent temps = way more accurate tuning.

The highlighted part above. How is fresh air flowing over the core? Maybe in a 20mph head wind? If not, you are only counting on radiant heat transfer. In W2A the heat in the system will be spread out consistently by the cooling medium. Therefore allowing more surface area to cool the core. With A2A nothing is helping spread the heat across the core. The heat has to 'pull' its self across the core where water will circulate it. How can the water circulate if the pump is off you ask? Thermodynamics and Caloric.

Just so you know, I am not trying to be argumentative. I love technical discussions. Its when people act childish and start the name calling that it loose interest. My boss and I would get into huge debates..they usually ended in tools flying! Thats not such a good idea when the shop is full of Ferrari's and Skylines!

Steven

 

[ghettosled]

Re: a2a OR w2a

If you datalog your IAT's during your 45min mixed condition drive, you will find the temps will be more consistent with W2A. More consistent temps = way more accurate tuning.

I'd rather be inconsistant, with 20-30 degree cooler temps then consistant with higher temps. There is usually a scaled temperature correction in tuning software if you are worried that much about consistancy. However, from what i have seen an a/a is typically alot more consistant during a run, then a stock system with larger pumps and additional exchangers.

The highlighted part above. How is fresh air flowing over the core? Maybe in a 20mph head wind? If not, you are only counting on radiant heat transfer. In W2A the heat in the system will be spread out consistently by the cooling medium. Therefore allowing more surface area to cool the core. With A2A nothing is helping spread the heat across the core. The heat has to 'pull' its self across the core where water will circulate it.

depends where you place the core. Put it in front of the radiator, and your engines fan will constantly pull fresh air through the core. Enough so that is will suck a dollar bill into the fins from a foot away @ idle. Mounted under the bumper, mount a 7" puller fan on the backside for low speed. FOr increased ram air at higher speeds mount an air deflector or scoop.

I'm not trying to argue with anyone or sound arrogant. I'm just trying to help based on the amount of hands on expirience i have had with sytys and just about every intercooler ever marketed for them. My suggestion is talk to guys who have switched over to A/A. Try to find even (1) person who regretted it and expirienced higher temperatures when averaged in comparison to the a/l.

The only way a mofied stock type system with heat exchangers, larger pumps etc will ever compare (and possibly outperform an a/a) is at the track where you can circulate the water in the pits with a bag of ice on the intake/intercooler. If your pump can circulate enough water, and your resevoir is large enough not to re-cirulate heated water during your 10,11, or 12 sec pass then it WILL stay cool.

 

[BVM]

Re: a2a OR w2a

I'd rather be inconsistant, with 20-30 degree cooler temps then consistant with higher temps. There is usually a scaled temperature correction in tuning software if you are worried that much about consistancy. However, from what i have seen an a/a is typically alot more consistant during a run, then a stock system with larger pumps and additional exchangers.


.

I am gonna have to disagree with you Mike. I do applaud the fact that you conducted yourself like an adult. :tup:

 

[ghettosled]

Re: a2a OR w2a

BVM,

I'm curious do you even have a syty? If not, i'm curious as to how you are basing your opinions. We are talking applications based on a syty installation not WRX, Ferarri, Lambo, etc.

Of course people are entitled to their own opinion and i dont expect every person to listen and follow what i say.

 

[BVM]

Re: a2a OR w2a

BVM,

I'm curious do you even have a syty? If not, i'm curious as to how you are basing your opinions. We are talking applications based on a syty installation not WRX, Ferarri, Lambo, etc.

Of course people are entitled to their own opinion and i dont expect every person to listen and follow what i say.

Do I even have a syty.. wow did you really pull that card? Now you have went and disappointed me. No I don't have one. I don't even have the scooby anymore. Anything else?

 

[Double12]

Re: a2a OR w2a

BVM,

I'm curious do you even have a syty? If not, i'm curious as to how you are basing your opinions.

I was wondering the same thing. Theory and practice can be quite different, especially with these trucks.