Help! Fixed timing now No Power

[AppleTY]

So I have bringing my Ty back from the dead slowly but surely.

Today I decided to check compression, change the plugs and check the timing. Compression was pretty good (148 - 132), but when I checked timing I found that it appeared to be about 16* advanced! (a good inch ahead of the indicator)

This was pretty surprising to me, but I thought it might explain why I wasn't really getting much boost (~10lbs) and the truck was feeling sluggish.

I undid the timing connection and dialed it back to 0*. The truck was barely able to idle! I reconnected the timing connector, cleared the DTC and took it out for a quick DM run.

It's like I have no power whatsoever. Strangely, DM shows it boosting all the way to 14psi, but it felt like the engine wasn't getting any of it! Any ideas on what could be wrong?

Here is what the DM run looks like at WOT now:


Here's what it looked like before:

 

[RealFastV6]

Re: Help! Fixed timing now No Power

Guess it wasn't 16 degrees advanced eh?

Balancer is probably slipped.

 

[jeepruby04]

Re: Help! Fixed timing now No Power

TPS% is 100 in both however TPS volts is showing almost 1/2 volt difference:dunno: might want to check that.

 

[AppleTY]

Re: Help! Fixed timing now No Power

Guess it wasn't 16 degrees advanced eh?

Balancer is probably slipped.

That sounds bad. Honestly I didn't even know that could happen. How can I check that and how do I get to TDC?

I have heard about the napkin trick, but it doesn't sound very accurate.

 

[Don W.]

Re: Help! Fixed timing now No Power

Pulling #1 and putting a probe so you can watch piston travel. Use a piston stop, goes in the plug hole as well. Turn motor gently until it stops. Mark balancer. Roll back to where it stops again. Mark balancer. exact midpoint is TDC. You can get close by watching cyl # 4 valves. When ex closes and in opens, right when they're both open you're real close to TDC #1 (Since we're even fire 1 and 4 travel together.)

Hard part is marking and watching the balancer.

HTH

 

[Sy1566]

Re: Help! Fixed timing now No Power

Let the experts chime-in but IMO, your harmonic ballancer's outer ring might have slipped and spun causing an inaccurate timing readout. This is a common issue, specially for a truck that has sat for some time. I'll subscribe to your thread and wait for other posts. I also would like to know where to get a replacement harmonic ballancer. I tried the dealership but was told they no longer carry it. Either ways, good luck.

 

[AppleTY]

Re: Help! Fixed timing now No Power

Thanks everyone. I ordered a piston stop, I will hopefully get this timing issue ironed out soon.

As for the dampner: If the inner ring separated I would be having some vibration issues, but if its the outer ring it shouldn't cause that right? Either way it could fully separate and take out the fan or something I suppose.

Here is the really odd thing though... Why would I all of a sudden be getting full boost? Why would retarding my timing get 14psi when I couldn't get past 10 with no KR?

 

[Don W.]

Re: Help! Fixed timing now No Power

The damper may not be the issue. Have you pulled the ECM fuses (I believe it's "B")? There are 2 marks on the damper. Are you looking at the correct one? Do a quick TDC check. Look at cyl 4 like I said or just have a helper hold their finger in #1 plug hole. When they feel compression you should see the mark coming or very close. Sorry to ask but are you using the correct mark on the timing tab?

On the earlier graph boost is at -0- but engine data shows 7.0

My truck doesn't idle very well at all with the timing connector disconnected. Unless your experience is different I wouldn't worry about that. How did it idle with it connected?

On both DM's spark advance seems low. You should be getting more than that.

All the :2cents: I got for now...

 

[Daryl H]

Re: Help! Fixed timing now No Power

Your timing is so latent that you are burning fuel past the exhaust ports allowing to build a lot of boost.

 

[AppleTY]

Re: Help! Fixed timing now No Power

The damper may not be the issue. Have you pulled the ECM fuses (I believe it's "B")? There are 2 marks on the damper. Are you looking at the correct one? Do a quick TDC check. Look at cyl 4 like I said or just have a helper hold their finger in #1 plug hole. When they feel compression you should see the mark coming or very close. Sorry to ask but are you using the correct mark on the timing tab?

I didn't pull any fuses, why do you ask? I didn't notice a second mark on the damper, but I could barely see it at all so if there is one that might explain it. I set the timing off the only thing I saw on there which was a slot cut on the surface. As for the tab, I could read 12, 8, 4 and 0 (which was extra deep indent) so I am pretty sure I got that part right.

On the earlier graph boost is at -0- but engine data shows 7.0

That's just a weird thing when taking a screenshot of DM. Sometimes the cursor makes the graph values show -0-, but you can see the value above is correct.

My truck doesn't idle very well at all with the timing connector disconnected. Unless your experience is different I wouldn't worry about that. How did it idle with it connected?

I was talking about it idling after I reconnected it. Sorry if that was confusing.

 

[AppleTY]

Re: Help! Fixed timing now No Power

Your timing is so latent that you are burning fuel past the exhaust ports allowing to build a lot of boost.

That's deep, man.

Seriously, though that makes sense.
Certainly adds to my theory that my turbo is just shot. I was already planning on rebuilding it after I checked these last couple of things.

 

[Brassmonkey]

Re: Help! Fixed timing now No Power

This happened to me, I used the wrong timing mark. It makes a big difference.

There are 2 marks on the damper. Are you looking at the correct one? ...

 

[Don W.]

Re: Help! Fixed timing now No Power

Once the correct mark is established a little white nail polish works wonders.

Pulling the B fuse (I thinks it's B, just pull A & B and be done with it) resets the ECM.

No worries on my comments. I was just throwing stuff out there as things to check. The mark on the tab is the correct one. If it idled bad after reconnecting and resetting the ECM then there's something else going on. All of the above or even something we haven't thought of.

You might take a look at the cap and rotor. Also how old are the plug wires? I always thought plug wires were pretty long lived. Nope. Changed mine last year (4 or 5 year old Taylors) and it made a very noticeable difference in the way it ran.

Keep us posted. Always interested in the results of these. Adds to our collective knowledge.

 

[RealFastV6]

Re: Help! Fixed timing now No Power

Thanks everyone. I ordered a piston stop, I will hopefully get this timing issue ironed out soon.

As for the dampner: If the inner ring separated I would be having some vibration issues, but if its the outer ring it shouldn't cause that right? Either way it could fully separate and take out the fan or something I suppose.

Here is the really odd thing though... Why would I all of a sudden be getting full boost? Why would retarding my timing get 14psi when I couldn't get past 10 with no KR?

The outter ring of the balancer and the inner ring of the balancer are "held together" by a piece of rubber that seperates them. Due to the age of these trucks, AND (imo) due to the proximity of the crossover to the balancer, that rubber piece dry rots and allows the outer ring to "slip" and allows the timing mark to move.

Having fast boost and yet no power is dead-on accurate description of what happens when you've got severely retarded timing. Sounds like your timing WAS way advanced (if you couldn't get past 10lbs of boost without KR) but now it's way retarded. That sort-of indicates that the timing mark had already slipped by the last time the timing was set.

You can find true TDC and create a new mark, and then try to set your timing again - but likely it's going to keep moving and you'll find you really need a new balancer. The good news is it's not really an expensive problem. A new nice Pioneer balancer is less than $200.

 

[Don W.]

Re: Help! Fixed timing now No Power

A new nice Pioneer balancer is less than $200.

The fun part is changing it.

 

[Daryl H]

Re: Help! Fixed timing now No Power

That's deep, man.

Seriously, though that makes sense.
Certainly adds to my theory that my turbo is just shot. I was already planning on rebuilding it after I checked these last couple of things.

Its how a two step rev limiter works to build boost.
I would not worry about replacing the turbo just yet.

 

[OneBadS10]

Re: Help! Fixed timing now No Power

^^ Gotta agree with what Daryl said. Get the truck running first.

 

[AppleTY]

Re: Help! Fixed timing now No Power

I would not worry about replacing the turbo just yet.

No doubt. Truck was running pretty good with the exception of not building boost prior to checking the timing. It's not registered here in Cali yet so I can't really take it out for good test drives. Mostly just in the neighborhood. Here is a list of what I have done since I got it out of 12yrs of storage:

Replaced:
Rear end pinion seal
Fuel tank
Fuel pump
Lower CAC HX and pump
All vacuum hoses
Spark plugs
All engine fluids

Cleaned:
Fuel lines front to back
Injectors (balanced and tested)

Checked:
Boost leaks (pretty bad on TB)
Wastegate actuator
Wastegate motion
Compression

I still haven't even burned through the first half tank of gas.

I should get the piston stop in on Thursday, so hopefully get this resolved this weekend. Timing was really the last thing on my list.

Engine has 130k miles on it, and I ran the hell out of it in the 90's, so I was expecting a turbo issue. I can feel axial play on the shaft and the amount of oil on the casing, the smell of burning oil on the manifold..

Only other major thing I can think of is blocked CAT, which is possible but no real way to test that I know of.

 

[AppleTY]

Re: Help! Fixed timing now No Power

Well mystery is solved!

I was using the wrong timing mark on the damper. Thanks to Don W. for pointing out that there are 2 marks. I checked with a piston stop today, and found that TDC was pretty much right on top of the second mark, which I guess is good news that the damper hasn't slipped. The truck must have been retarded just enough that I was only seeing the first mark and not knowing that there was 2, I retarded it what like 40*?

I used a silver metallic sharpie to mark the right notch and the truck sounds much happier.

I haven't taken it out for a spin yet though because just as I was putting the plastic x-over pipe back in I noticed that the area around the PCV inlet was cracked and pretty much ready to fall apart. Further inspection revealed that both ends are also severely cracked. Unfortunately, I need to keep the factory air intake for my emissions inspections, but for now I will put my CAI kit back on. I will repair the x-over pipe as best I can and not clamp it down during the inspections.

Thank you everyone for your input, I can't believe that the truck ran at all with the timing that retarded!

 

[atkonkler]

Re: Help! Fixed timing now No Power

Move out of California! and to Mn ! No emissions bs! It's a crock of poop and cars burn so clean now it's another way for the bankrupt state of California to get more money out if you!