Tuning timing

[TYTILIDIE]

First off, what is the best way to do this? Ive been comparing Datamster files side to side for the last few minutes and am realizing that my better runs (before I had hte Ostrich) had what seem to be way less timing, or advance. Ive neve been to keen on timing even when I was in to carbed cars. Always found it kind of a blur.

Ultimate chip, 13.7@95
It seems it wants to give the truck 14* total. Now you have to know htat through out the run there was an average of 4-7*KR. Which left the Spark Advance @4-7*. So I assume that if it wasnt knocking, it wouldve equalled 14*. If IM wrong just tell me. So in this particualr case, would I want to back off timing to try and get it to 6-8*? Now on this particualr run I know that is not the case because I was having top end fueling issues with the Ultimate. So my first run with the Ostrich looks like this:

Ostrich-moddified Dig BIN 14.08@96
Now here we seem to have good fueling and more mph but horrible KR.
Through out the run I had and average of 19-22* total. Spark advance was from 10-12* while KR was @ 10-12* making a total of 20-22* total advance. Once again, if im wrong let me know. So the question now is, should I back timing down 10* for a start and see where it gets me on a run? What is a normal advance for a truck like mine with no alky? These were WOT 1/4 runs BTW. I am slightly convinced that a little bit of my knock is false but have no proof yet. At low RPM just before boost, I get about 6-7*KR. It seems to hit straight to 8-12 under high boost. Im think 6 or 7 of that could be false. Also, wondering what are the best tables to start with for this situation?

 

[cvcsmkr]

Re: Tuning timing

if i were you id would worry about one thing at a time, and tuning the timing wouldnt be the first.
have you put race fuel in the truck to see if the KR goes away?
dont try and tune around the KR.

but from what i understand if your timing is at 14* and you get 6* of retard, then the actually timing is 8*.

i dont know how to tune timing, i would love for one of the experienced guys do a small write up.

 

[TYTILIDIE]

Re: Tuning timing

So when it says spark advance, thats supposed to be what it is supposed to run minus KR? When I look at the cells in TP, they add up from spark advance to KR perfectly.

 

[cvcsmkr]

Re: Tuning timing

in DM on a log, lets say thru a wot run.
your bin might be calling for 14* you get 5* of retard, then spark advance will go down 5*, the ecu is retarding the timing. so at that exact point you would have 9* of advance.


i dont know about the cells in TP, i log with DM.

 

[TYTILIDIE]

Re: Tuning timing

Well what Im doing is thaking the RPM and KPa point in a run, say at 4200RPM=204 KPa(18psi). On the DM run, I get 16.9* in the spark advance box and 5.3* of KR. So then if you blaze over to the tuner pro bin and open the table for timing, I get 22.2* @ 4200RPM and @205 KPa. See what I mean? Its almost as if there is just waay too much tming. The amount it is knocking I am going to try and take off for now and see what it does. If the cell in TP says 22.2, then im thinking thats what it wants to set timing at. Now to me it only makes sense to take off the amount of *'s of KR. I can always put it right back if it doesnt work but Im trying to be logical here. I searched and couldnt find one single post about tuning for timing.

 

[juicehead9]

Re: Tuning timing

whats you air to fuel ratio when doing a run? I would thiink you may want to try fattening it up some

 

[It's just a six]

Re: Tuning timing

Also, just wondering what are your MAT's,need to keep them below 115ish.
Otherwise you will get too much KR.
I would say you should try & shoot for the 20 degrees of total timeing.
under 20, & you will never run as good as it could w/20 .

Do you plan on installing an alky kit? If so , you might want to be doing this tunning w/an alky kit installed, other wise, you are going to go through all this(tunning) all over again. :2cents:
Like the previous post said, what are your A/F ratio's?

 

[cvcsmkr]

Re: Tuning timing

Well what Im doing is thaking the RPM and KPa point in a run, say at 4200RPM=204 KPa(18psi). On the DM run, I get 16.9* in the spark advance box and 5.3* of KR. So then if you blaze over to the tuner pro bin and open the table for timing, I get 22.2* @ 4200RPM and @205 KPa. See what I mean? Its almost as if there is just waay too much tming. The amount it is knocking I am going to try and take off for now and see what it does. If the cell in TP says 22.2, then im thinking thats what it wants to set timing at. Now to me it only makes sense to take off the amount of *'s of KR. I can always put it right back if it doesnt work but Im trying to be logical here. I searched and couldnt find one single post about tuning for timing.

makes sense, in all of the loggs i have back to when i had an ultimate, my timing never went over 20*. usually around 15*.
i dont know what the norm is for a syty though??

the supposed ultimate bin i have now only calls for 14*, but it is just a street bin(T1).

 

[TYTILIDIE]

Re: Tuning timing

A/FR's are in the 10's and 11's on WOT runs. MAT's arent even going over 100. Theyre right around 70-85*. As of now I was really wanting to get as far as I could w/o Alky but its startgin to look like Im really going to need it.

 

[turbodig]

Re: Tuning timing

A/FR's are in the 10's and 11's on WOT runs.

Ahh, but the question is *where* are they 10, and where are they 11. Rich from 3000-3800 or so, right after the shifts, progressing leaner as you go up in RPM...

In general, if I can't run 11-12 degrees timing on pump gas, I look for something wrong. That "something wrong" has been crappy gas lots of times.

I've had full-weight Tys go 12.9 on a 11 degree-timing pump-gas chip at 17 psi.

 

[dgoodhue]

Re: Tuning timing

If I am reading your post right its seems like your running 19-22 degrees of timing with an Ostrich before spark retard, that seems like a bunch of timing for a stock motor unless you have Vortecs. You should be able to look at you table and see what ecm is looking up for timing (calculate boost from the MAP Boost & RPM) One thing about KR is that once you get some detonation, it creates more heat and makes you prone to further detonation on that run. Also the ECM often over shoots what it need to pull back timing (which is a good thing to save the motor) You may want to pull back some timing in your WOT area's to help reduce the timing. To a more reasonable level on pump gas (you probably can get close to that much timing with Alky & pump gas)

You do want to make sure your not tuning out knock retard by covering up another problem, which I think Dig is trying to help you out with.

 

[SBNova]

Re: Tuning timing

Also the ECM often over shoots what it need to pull back timing

If you have 14 gerees of timing with 6 degrees or retard it doesn't mean that you need to set it for 8 degrees at that kpa vs RPM. Try taking away 1-2 degrees at the kpa vs rpm where the KR starts. Also, make sure you have good quality gas, or just tune it for what you usually run which is what I do. I would rather tune for 91 octane and be even safer (at the expense of being marginally slower) when I step up to 93 octane.

 

[TYTILIDIE]

Re: Tuning timing

The main problem around ehre when it comes to crappy gas is that the ONLY place that sold 93 was bought by Phillips 66 and they decided to do away with altogether. So now I jsut use Shell 91 V-Power. We dont have places like Sunoco, Mobil, Exxon, Chevron that I think usually have specialty type fuels we are just stuck with what we have. Now as far the timing table goes, it does seem to call for 20* of timing which is what I was trying to say.Im ot sure Im reading the table correctly but thats what it looks like. I will try and pull a couple degrees at a time. Problem I have with knwoing exactly where my A/FR's are all the time is that I really cant log it at the same time with the ALDL taking up my only serial port. I also cant figure out how to log the WB anyway. I knwo what my A/FR's are just from paying near constant attention to it as Im on my run. So I guess I thought I was really on to something with the math between adv and KR but oh well, just trying to think hard. Im just going to turn the boost down to 15 and tune around that and like you siad before, move up a psi at a time.

 

[turbodig]

Re: Tuning timing

The main problem around ehre when it comes to crappy gas is that the ONLY place that sold 93 was bought by Phillips 66 and they decided to do away with altogether. So now I jsut use Shell 91 V-Power. We dont have places like Sunoco, Mobil, Exxon, Chevron that I think usually have specialty type fuels we are just stuck with what we have. Now as far the timing table goes, it does seem to call for 20* of timing which is what I was trying to say.Im ot sure Im reading the table correctly but thats what it looks like. I will try and pull a couple degrees at a time. Problem I have with knwoing exactly where my A/FR's are all the time is that I really cant log it at the same time with the ALDL taking up my only serial port. I also cant figure out how to log the WB anyway.

That's what the wide-band patch is for... while you're logging ALDL data, you're getting wide-band AFR *in* the data.

I knwo what my A/FR's are just from paying near constant attention to it as Im on my run.

Hate to break this to ya, but there's no way your eyes are fast enough to watch the changes even if you're staring at it constantly. (Much less while you're driving)

If you have your wide band plumbed into F14, everything you need to see is in the data log.

There are several timing tables, and the total timing is the sum of all of them. Gotta add them all up, then they should equal the total timing before KR is taken out.

 

[TYTILIDIE]

Re: Tuning timing

I can see that. But, when I log it gives me mV's. Dont I want to see A/FR? If I can, how do I see it in that measurement?

 

[TYTILIDIE]

Re: Tuning timing

Just looked, is it Air Fuel Crank?

 

[dgoodhue]

Re: Tuning timing

If your running $58, The o2 Sensor should be the narrow band mV. The Targeted AFR fuel should have the wideband data.

 

[TYTILIDIE]

Re: Tuning timing

Thats just in Tuner Pro and not in Datamaster correct?

 

[dgoodhue]

Re: Tuning timing

That is in Diacom, but its still a data field that Tuner Pro & Datamaster should have.

 

[It's just a six]

Re: Tuning timing

I've had full-weight Tys go 12.9 on a 11 degree-timing pump-gas chip at 17 psi.

Are you saying that timing value total is the norm? Stock Ty? If not,,,, what is the approx norm? :tup: